Paypal fees discussion

I would guess some sellers imagine their prices look like a better deal when they're listed as "$45 plus paypal fees" or "$45 + 4%" as opposed to $48 or however many more dollars it is, without realizing that it's really just annoying.

 

I get tired of it, quite frankly, you've worked out what you'd be paying for the item, then next thing it's 5% higher. That may not be a lot of difference, but when you have to convert to Australian currency, it's often closer to 8%. If they're upfront, you're going to pay this plus fees plus shipping well then you have a chance to think about it, but often they wait until you're ready to pay then mention the 'extras'.

I like paypal because when you're buying from overseas, it's a great way to pay and also receive money. Australian banks charge a $10 fee just to put a cheque in the bank, give a lousy exchange rate and then take up to 6 weeks to clear. Paypal is so much easier.

 

In the name of all that is good and decent, state it up front!
So I know not to buy from you.

I've only gotten that "plus Paypal fees" thing once, but they didn't state it in their sale page. They just sprung it for me after I said "I'll buy it. What's your addie." Very not cool. And I won't be a repeat customer.
My feeling, though, is that if a seller is willing to break their agreement with Paypal for their own convenience and gain, what assurance do I have that they aren't willing to break their agreement with me?

Group orders are different animal. You're not selling something, you're doing everyone a favor.

 

It's illegal according to Paypals terms of service, so it doesn't matter what your country says.

I've got a personal account so I'm not charged fees for balence transfers or echecks, which is why I only accept those methods of payment.

Frankly, when I see people say they are charging paypal fees it really makes me mad because they are the responsibility of the seller and they are fees to have the convinience of paypal. If someone tried to pull that "don't forget fees" on me, you can be sure I'd report them to paypal.

The only time I can think it to be acceptable to ask for fees is for a group order, and that is because you need the exact amount to pay the company.

 

I try to include it in the sales price. Sure, you might be able to get it cheaper on say a doll site, but I got it in hand and can ship the very next day, or the same in most cases!

 

Except for the cases of group orders, I strongly disagree with charging paypal fees, and in most cases, will not purchase from sellers that charge them. It really annoyed me when I had to pay about $60 extra to cover "paypal fees" when buying a really limited doll on DoA. I was already paying DOUBLE (about $1400) the original sale price of the doll, and then that much extra for fees? How greedy can you get?

When I sell something myself, if I'm that concerned with fees, I just charge a slightly higher price than what I'd be willing to accept so that what I write on my FS is the actual price I charge the buyer. -_-

 

I absolutely will not buy from someone if they charge the Paypal fee to me. Period.

If they tried to dishonestly slip it in on me at the last second I think I would probably pay the stated price only and not include the fee or refuse to do business with that person at all.

The *only* exception is group orders; even then I've seen it abused on occasion such as double or triple charging the fees or raising prices on items and also charging paypal fees to buyers on not only the item but the shipping as well.

The way I see it, if you don't include it in the price, that's your fault. It's your fee and you are responsible for it, not the buyer. That's why it comes out of your account automatically.

Buyers are doing you a favor to buy your item, they can just as easily buy from someone else, so swallow the fee or add it in. Buyers shouldn't have to do the extra math and hand over more of their money just so you can come out flush.

 

It's important to distinguish, though... It's not ILLEGAL to charge fees, it's AGAINST YOUR CONTRACT with Paypal. When you signed up for Paypal, you agreed not to charge that fee, so no one is exempt, whatsoever.

 

Basically agreeing with what msot people are saying- if you feel you're getting ripped off by paypal fees as a seller, just raise the item price a bit to cover it so that you're comfortable with the profit you'll be getting. This is how most stores and businesses work- they price items after factoring in various costs, ranging from the obvious (employee wages, rent, cost of registers and equipment, etc) to the not so obvious (business bank account fees, packaging, electricity bills, insurance, etc). All (smart) businesses factor in every possible expense as well as desired or necessary profit margin before setting their retail prices. For someone using paypal, paypal fees are just one of those expenses. For example, if you know that you get paid by paypal about half of the time and are charged 4% fees, then a 2% or so price hike on everything will cover that when averaged. So long as it's included as part of either the item price or handling fee, you're complying with Paypal's TOS (and whatever local laws are in place where you live- I'm pretty sure some states/countries/etc have laws about adding fees on top of the purchase price of items for various reasons).

I personally can't be bothered to mess around trying to figure out how much I'd actually have to pay when a seller charges Paypal fees. Though I agree with some that it's frustrating to have to get charged on really small payments... like sending someone 50 cents or $1 to someone for postage on a light freebie/cheap item (like say stickers or something)... you end up losing a huge % of such small payments to fees... I wouldn't mind adding on an extra 20 cents on a payment of 50 cents so the person doesn't take a loss on a stamp! XD

 

Well, I'll be completely straight about it... I sell on ebay, I sell on LJ, I sell here, and also do SEVERAL group orders here...

- On ebay I cannot ask...
- On LJ I ask because most items I am selling are at fractions of prices I pay for them, and I also offer other forms of payments, so I feel it's rude to charge a higher price to cover paypal fees when someone may send me payment via mail, and people are always more prone to jump at lower prices, also I state "I ask that buyer cover ppfee"... I never say that I won't sell if they don't send me the extra I quote them.
- On DOA: I do several group orders, some with dolls on them, so It would be entirely unfair to me to loose all that money... I sell here as well. I ask that people paying by paypal pay it becuase I offer to accept other forms of payment. If you ever find me selling anything that I'm making a profit on you will not find me asking for it. Anything I've sold to date, I've made not a penny of profit.

 

It makes sense for a group order, but its not something I think should be done on sales transactions. As a buyer its annoying, who wants to break out the calculator?

Surcharges are against the paypal user agreement, Also I may be wrong but in the countries where surchages are legal its only within those countries, I don't think its legal if you are accepting the payment from a country where adding a surcharge is illegal.

 

On this subject, i like to be charge the same as what i charge buyers.
--ebay, even if it's a .99 items, i get charge no matter what, and i sell on there alot. After the few hundreds ebay fees, i expect my paypal to be the same.

--on DOA, if you make one payment for an item, you can choose which method you prefer, i do however on very small items that i prefer non cc, but give buyer the choice if they want to use cc. I do however charge a 2% if they want a layaway up to 3 months and as much payments as they need. meaning i willing to share with buyer since they are going to make small payments and lots of it. I do think this is a fair case since they get to choose the time and amount they want to pay. this way, i end the end still get charge near the 4% as many small payments end up quite a bit in fees. So far all that i have deal with on layaway has no problem with this. Though i have to say there are a number of really nice people here who just offer upfront to just pay the 4% to me, saying since everyone else is charging it, they might as well pay. Getting charge fees for a doll is something i wouldn't buy as i always pay in one payment using my cc as they do cost alot. So since i have to use my cc to pay for it, i am already paying for interest monthly so i stay away from seller who charges fees unless if it's a similar to me so that way i can just pay little off at a time without going through my high interest cc.x.

 

So, for those people who think it's OK to ask the buyer to pay the fees: What possible explination can you have that it's not your responsibility to cover those, considering it's in your contract with paypal that you eat all the fees?

Either way, it's enlighting to see who charges fees so I can add them to my avoid list.

 

I think of it more as a cash discount - passing the savings onto the buyer in the event there are no fees to pay when payment is made from Paypal balance or bank transfer.

Which, if a seller can offer it, I think is a really nice thing to do. Always happy to get a bargain, me. *^^*

That said, I usually include enough to cover fees in my sales prices (I have forgotten to a few times and been hit pretty hard.) And I have the account that charges fees for everything, so the point is moot for me as a seller.

I've mentioned Paypal fees in group orders to make certain that people participating know the actual cost will be somewhat higher because the organizer has to pay these fees.

[Edited a few times for clarity]

 

Paypal is a love hate thing for me.
It makes business so easy, the shipping/labels are a dream
I hate the fees, but it is a necessary thing. Imagine how much less you would buy/sell if you had to run out and get a money order for each little thing? I know I buy so much more now cause its so easy

People running group orders must charge for them cause they can really add up.

 

Outside of group orders I avoid the sale threads where the seller tacks on "+4% paypal fees" because it just feels tacky. That, and I hate math, so having to get out the calculator just to figure out how much to give someone for a doll t-shirt..yeah not my cup of tea. If someone adds it into their sale price, I couldn't care less.

 

That's happened to me at least once but after I pointed out that it hadn't been stated up front, we were able to work it out. It was a doll I really wanted badly or else I might have just said "sorry, deal is off" too.
Basically, a deal is like a contract. You need to state all your terms up front so people can make an informed decision whether to enter into that contract with you.
I try to always remember to ask about fees if the person doesn't say anything about them, but sometimes the discussion gets confused or off track and the issue doesn't get fully resolved.

 

I'll admit I only did that when I first got into the DoA community and saw a lot of people doing it and thought it was okay, and unfortunately I'd forgotten most of what my contract with Paypal had said. I only learned later that it was completely against the contract and I cut it out quick. I'm just kicking myself for not reading my contract with Paypal earlier in detail, I feel really badly for making those previous sales before I learned. I wonder if some of the people tacking on 4% only do it because "all those other people are doing it, too"?

Now when I sell something, I might take into account what I might lose due to fees, but I never ever ask buyers to pay extra. I've actually been surprised by a couple buyers throwing in a little bit extra when they Paypal me their payment. Has anyone else done this to people they buy from? It really caught me by surprise when they did that, I found it really sweet of them.

But I completely understand it if people running group orders and charge the fees. Like someone else mentioned here, why should the group organizer have to eat that huge chunk of fees just so you can save on shipping? I'm more than happy to pay the extra there.

And echoing the same thing here: it's not illegal, it's just against your contract with Paypal. No one's breaking any laws.

 

Yes, I think sometimes we overlook this.

If you are doing business via Paypal, you agreed not to charge fees when you set up your account.

Unfortunately, that is not correct.

Violations of contract are illegal in most parts of the world. You can be sued, etc. Paypal technically has the right to take you to court for contract violation if you charge fees -- interstate commerce law is quite an interesting beast -- although I can't imagine it would be to their advantage to involve corporate lawyers over the amounts we're discussing here. However, they are perfectly entitled to do so. They can also yank your account out of their system for violating their terms of use; this is the method they most often use.

Yeah. It IS illegal, because when you clicked "I accept" you entered into a legally binding contract.

 

Woops, my bad then. I was always assumption that they'd just yank your account and not press charges for whatever reason. So I assume that all the previous statements saying it's not illegal are incorrect as well?