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Paypal fees discussion

Jul 23, 2007

    1. You're not criminally liable for breaking the terms of service (i.e. there's no pressing charges/getting arrested) but you are civilly liable (in that you can be sued by Paypal for breach of contract) :)
       
    2. I have mixed feelings about paypal fees being charged by sellers. On one hand, I consider the fees what I have to pay for the convenience of having an instant payment. So when I'm selling all my extra doll stuff I don't charge paypal fees, since it isn't that much I lose anyway and I appreciate the convenience!

      But on the other hand, the paypal fees can REALLY add up for more expensive items (like, say, Reisner). So when I'm selling dolls I just say that I will only accept money orders. But if the buyer really wants to pay with paypal and they want to offer to pay the fees, then I will accept it. But I don't like forcing anyone to pay the fees, so I will never make the buyer pay them. I don't think there is a rule against buyers offering to pay the paypal fee, is there? And thanks for the clarification about the legality of charging fees, anbaachan.

      I'll admit that it bugs me when sellers ask you to add for the paypal fee, especially if it isn't an expensive item. I'm less likely to buy from them unless it is something I really want. But with group orders I think it is only fair that the person running it should charge paypal fees, or they will lose money for doing people a favor!
       
    3. I think when most people think "illegal", though, they think "you can go to jail", not "you can be successfully sued." It's kind of a loaded word, ya know?
       
    4. I charged for the 4% fee once, and I felt so dirty and immoral because I knew it was wrong. DDDx I will never do it again, I swear.
       
    5. Paypal fees didn't bother me when I was just selling clothing and such because the price I asked was low and so were the Paypal fees, but I got kicked in the butt on the sale of my doll.
      I sold her for $350 and the fees were around $36 something!! I was so pissed, because I thought the fees would be small like before, if I had known I would have upped the price.
      It's my husbands account so I didn't know (and he never said) they take a % and not a flat rate like our banks "thats not our ATM" charges, all my sales before were just about the same price so the fee was the same and I didn't mind paying instead of charging more.
      I agree it's weird to announce that you charge more for fees, but I guess it for those things that if one waited a bit they could just drive to a store and not pay fees? Like the people that stockpile time limited stuff and sell on Ebay. i.e game systems which are released in quantity's per month sold to people who don't want to go through the hassle of trying to get one in the store (wait in line all night "sorry all sold out":x :...(.
       
    6. I don't charge PP fees because it's part of their terms of service that I not do so. I don't build the fees into the base price, either, because that's not fair to buyers who don't use PayPal.

      What I do do, however, is let buyers know up front that while I take PayPal, I prefer other forms of payment. Because of this simple stated preference, 50% of the buyers volunteer to use the forms of payment I prefer.

      It wouldn't be an issue to me at all if the fees weren't so large in comparison to what other forms of payment cost. You can get a $1,000 domestic money order for $1.50 from USPS. The PayPal fees on that same amount would be about $30. Yes, PayPal is convenient, but it's not $30 worth of convenient.
       
    7. I always offer to pay fees if I'm buying from someone here on DoA, even if the seller doesn't ask for them. Especially if its a bigger transaction, like a few hundred dollars.

      But for eBay or actual company transactions, I don't bother, as I'm not dealing with them as personally as I am on here.

      I personally don't ask people to cover fees unless I'm going to be losing a lot of what I've made.
       
    8. I bought from someone who charged the fees. I wasn't happy with this, I protested, but in the end, I wanted the purchase and had few other venues, so it was cheaper and much, much easier to pay the fees than go elsewhere.
       
    9. The benefit to the buyer is that Paypal, especially used with a credit card, is much safer than sending a check or money order. If a seller turned out to be fraudulent, or if the check or money order was stolen from the mail, misdelivered and cashed by someone else, etc., it would be very hard, if not impossible, for a buyer to recover that money. When I use my credit card, I am in effect also buying insurance for myself against the transaction going bad, and most doll sellers can't accept a credit card unless you put it through Paypal because they're individuals, not businesses. So it's not just convenience, it's also a certain level of protection that the buyer is getting.
       
    10. Mm... tough topic. I understand the sellers who charge their buyers paypal fees, and if I really wanted that item I'd be happy to front the cash, no problem. But seeing as how it's illegal, it's still wrong. I don't charge for paypal fees, and I may be hit with that later when I get a premium account, but I'd never charge a 4% or whatever extra. I may have to raise my item prices someday, but like I said, I'd never do the whole "the buyer has to pay the 4% pp fees" thing and make them do the fiddling.

      Also, an issue that hasn't been brought up so far. How does charging Paypal fees affect DoA? Could this end up hurting the forum in any way because the members are engaging in illegal activites? I remember DOA had a close skim with being shut down.. (was it this year or last?) and I would be VERY angry if this could lead to a similar outcome. Does anyone, or any mods, or admin know the answer?
       
    11. Which is a good point. There only problem is, it's the seller paying for that protection, not the buyer. And sellers get no protection from PayPal at all.

      In the end, it's all moot. PP makes the rules, and because I use their service, I play by those rules. It doesn't mean I can't prefer other payment methods, though. ;)
       
    12. Wow, I had no idea charging Paypal fees was against their contract. O.o I guess I should stop charging them on my commissions or figure it into the base price. :sweat
       
    13. I've not yet sold on Ebay but when selling on the boards I do charge the Paypal fees for a credit card transaction. I have a personal account & therefore can only accept 5 credit card transactions a year. I try to reserve those for large ticket items & simply state that I only take balance or bank transfers.

      So why do I charge the fees? Simply because I'm basically selling at the price I paid for an object or even more often at a loss to quickly move the item. In other words, I'm not making a profit & just how much of a loss should I be expected to take? Also, the fees for accepting a credit card payment on a personal account are much higher than the regular premier or business account ones.

      I try to give people the best value for their money so if someone has ready cash why should I charge more for an item than neccessary? I ask for the fees for the convienence of using a credit card & if I need to pay that way, I understand it & am willing to cover the fees. If I start selling on a more regular basis & on Ebay I'll most likely need to upgrade my account & therefore price my items higher to cover the loss.
       
    14. What about the legalities and ethics of offering discounts for non-Paypal payments? Like "[Item] is $35. ($5 discount if paying by method other than Paypal)" Or free shipping if paying by not-Paypal?

      I remember hearing about places (I think it was gas stations) doing that a few years ago (offering discounts if paying by cash) but it might have been something that the credit card companies put a stop to.
       
    15. That would just look like you added 5$ to the price to cover fees.

      For credit cards, I think that they charge stores 3% per transaction, or at least the computer store I know offers a 3% discount if you pay with debit or cash.
       
    16. Gas stations are doing it again in my area, most offering a $.10 a gallon discount. My only problem with that is the amount of cash you have to carry on you in order to fill your cars now. :| I don't see anything wrong with offering a discount for money orders, or other forms of payment. The only problem when selling that I have with money orders is that there is such rampant fraud in them.

      Also, lets think of this a different way. Do we all realize how much all the the original doll manufacturers get hit up for the credit card and paypal fees? Like Volks, Crescent-Shop, Rinkya and the rest. Their items are priced with all of these factored in to the final cost of each doll/clothing item. Yet do we complain about the fact that they have to pay them or how much that adds to the cost of our dolls? I don't see any of them offering discounts if we pay by money order or another form.

      I personally just pass by the people who ask for the fee on top of the cost of the item they are selling because often the way they compute it they come out ahead of the original cost. It's like when you see something for sale and the price sounds reasonable until you add on all the other fees.

      I do believe when you are running a preorder though you definitely should receive reimbursement for the fees.
       
    17. Even though I dont charge fees with personal/private sale items, (or ebay but noone can really) I think its a convenience to ME (as a buyer) as much as it is to the seller. I don't want to send er...cash or a US money order (if that even exists in UK?) or set up a bank transfer that costs more money anyway (Unless it was ALOT of money)- and those I would have to eat the charges for!

      So I would rather someone sell me their stuff, ask me for a fee rather than not get it at all tbh...and I have done very big group orders on other forums before and I have asked for fees just because it's only fair, I have lots of extra work re packing the orders (Which I don't charge for packing costs) and I charge exactly what I paid to send it to them not a penny more. So why should I LOSE out on money too? >_>

      If the seller has given lots of payment options and buyer still chooses CC paypal why not ask for at least some of the fees (other than that its not allowed on paypal) sometimes people don't sell stuff for profit, it just about breaks even with how much they paid for it. I think its just polite for buyers to offer to cushion some of the fees (I usually pay a bit extra even when not asked) esp in a big purchase. (Though that can be annoying for the buyer, I have done it many times so I understand, but I think it is only fair unless you can tell the seller made ALOT of profit on it)

      I know some newsagents etc charge a small fee to pay by CC in shops here if you only buy hings of very low profit (like top up credit/phonecard etc) I see no problem with it its mutral politeness, I don't want to have to run down to the bank to get my money out, I'll pay 30p (like 60 cents I think) so that I don't have to bother doing that.
       
    18. I'm curious as to when Paypal added a "you're-not-allowed-to-charge-fees" clause into their agreement, because I certainly never read that years ago when I set up my account. It seems to be something set up after ebay hooked up with Paypal and began stating you couldn't charge the fees there as a promo to bidders.
      DESPITE THE LEGALITY:
      If you're buying an item above retail it's not unreasonable to expect the seller to simply add that cost into their pricing. However, I was forced to set upgrade my account to a Premier account a couple years ago because of the activity limits then set on all accounts. So for every ebay transaction I'm already paying ebay listing fees and final value fees. I strongly encourage all buyers NOT to use Paypal because of their restrictions on not charging the fee, and because I simply cannot afford it. We used to be permitted to state non-CC only, which allowed the convenience of Paypal for individuals that wanted to sell a few small items, or international buyers, but even that is no longer allowed. Paying an additional 4% seems ridiculous to me when there are other payment options. However as a seller, I had several interested buyers internationally who had no other payment option. Ie in Canada, many smaller banks will not accept International Money Orders, you may get charged a fee to convert mailed cash (which isn't safe for $20+ anyway) so Paypal is your only option. I haven't seen many people complain about paying the Bank Transfer fee for doll purchases. I think if you allow your customers to pay with a non-CC paypal and they still choose to use a creditcard because they want instant gratification, it is perfectly fair to expect them to pay the fee.
      I sold a $600 doll on ebay. Listing fees were almost $20, final value fees at over $60. Paypal fees would be another $30. The auction stated a specific date money would have to be accepted by, but the buyer decided she didn't want to express-mail her money order to arrive in time, and didn't want to use Paypal. She finally offered to pay with Paypal after the date specified (when she's been paid for another auction) and I'd filed non-paying-bidder, when I had already moved and put the doll into storage. Because I had stated I could accept Paypal, ebay decided it was my fault she didn't pay in time, and had to eat that cost. I lost over $80 in fees and was unable to sell the doll. Paypal is too often being used by buyers like another credit card, who don't have the funds to pay for everything they offer to pay.
      Simply adding the fee into shipping is equally unethical. My costs for shipping are already higher than the postage stamped due to increasinly high "fuel surcharge" and get complaints, buyers already complain about increased postage/handling fees to cover packing supplies. Some of us have to go buy envelopes, bubble wrap etc. As long as the seller is offering options, I feel it is okay for the buyer to be charged the varying fee differences involved, but it certainly needs to be known before a transaction is agreed upon. Too many sellers want to be honest and state right out that the price is higher due to fees because they don't want a reputation as a scalper, they shouldn't be punished for not making a profit. Uequally so, all buyers shouldn't be punished by paying extra because other people aren't as patient.
       
    19. If it is an international money order (especially postal money orders), I've never seen a Canadian bank refuse it. *_*
      And, you will always be charged a fee to convert any money from one currency to another, always.
       
    20. if its a small item i usually eat the fees, especially if its an item i made myself (50-90% of the money is in my labor and profit anyhow)... if its a much larger item i usually add it into the cost of the item itself, or consider the 'shipping and handling charge' to account for the paypal fee. the cost of selling and sending, basically. i never specifically *say* that its part of the fee, but if they feel i'm charging too much for shipping i usually mention that it takes into account the shipping packaging itself, the cost of postage + insurance and whatever else, plus the paypal fees....