Paypal fees discussion

What i was saying isn't that it's wrong to put fees on top of the price and set it at that.
I was trying to state that saying that you charge paypal fees and putting the fees on top to me is exactly the same thing.
If the fees are either in the cost already or will be added to the price at the end then you are still charging fees.
I just don't understand how it is acceptable to raise your price to pay for these fees (without telling people) but it is not acceptable to add the fees on at the end if clearly stated (i understand the paypal laws but unfortunately i feel like doing either of those things are the same and should both be banned or allowed since the added cost will still go towards paying fees)
So basically people think if you don't declare that there are fees added to the actual cost but is still there, then that's legal and fine.
However if you state you will charge fees then it is illegal?
I understand completely fine that it is easier on both parties if it is included within the price, I just can't seem to wrap my head around the fact that either way you're still charging fees yet one is allowed and one is not.

 

If you state you wll charge fees, it is against Paypal's TOS, and therefore considered a breach of contract and illegal. There's no question of that. As for adding fees without declaring, please think about it like this:

I decide to sell this item for $20. If I charge fees, it means that I, the seller, believes that that item is worth $20 to me, and I don't want to lose a cent of this value. If I don't charge fees, I still have to pay them. And where does the money come from? The $20 of my list price. Which the buyer is paying.

Whether or not the seller has factored in paypal fees or not, the buyer is still the one who ends up supplying the money to pay them. And as I have been reiterating, you will never know. You will never know if the seller is being 'nice' and accepting less than the $20 it's worth, or if the seller had already decided that it's worth $18 to him/her and listed it for $20 to cover the fees. And it should not matter. Because if you, as the buyer, are willing to fork out that $20 for the item, then obviously, it's worth $20 to you, and there's nothing wrong with just paying that.

 

I wouldn't mind paying the fee if it is stated upfront......included in the price or separate, either way you are still paying for it. As long as I am told the total upfront, I don't think there is anything wrong with it......

 

It's acceptable because as a buyer you can't tell a seller is still charging fees. If I say I want 300 for a doll, the buyer doesn't know if I really only want 260 or I don't mind paypal taking from me. That's the point. Not only that, when you reduce fees as you don't have 260+pp fees, but rather 300, you reduce the price from both automatically by saying you now want 280. Also, as I stated before, if I pay 300 via a bank account the fees are vastly different than via a CC *but* oft times the fees I'm charged is the same. However, if the seller only asks for 280, then it doesn't matter. You might think it's bit of the same thing *but* trust me when I said Paypal would view the two situations very differently, and therein lies the point. What is and what isn't against Paypal's TOS.

 

All i was saying is that either way the buyer is paying fees and just because they don't know they are being charged fees doesn't to me make one or the other any more or less ethical (hence why i don't understand why paypal thinks one is better than the other)
Even if you included the fees in your price but then you said fees are included, wouldn't that still be illegal because you're stating you are charging fees? That's no different to charging fees and not saying it yet one way is prohibited and the other is not.
I understand there are different opinions, i'm not trying to be rude.
Only stating what i think

 

The reply to why paypal thinks one is 'better' can be found a couple of pages back. Because if sellers charge paypal fees, and there are other (feeless) payment options, buyers and sellers would, as far as possible, avoid using paypal, so as not to incur the fee. This would decrease the amount of business paypal gets (remembering that they earn money from your fees). It's not a matter of ETHICS or MORALITY, it's a matter of business, as far as paypal is concerned. The only reason it's not 'right' for a seller to state that they charge fees is because it's a breach of paypal's TOS. And I do believe that any statement that you are charging paypal fees in any way is considered a breach of contract, so saying that fees are included is probably not permissable either.

Not to target you directly, but I think people in general should remember that 'right' and 'wrong' are value judgments that can differ from person to person, but 'lawful' and 'unlawful' are generally not things that you can debate unless you're an active participant in the democracy of the place the law comes from.

 

Pretty much. If you state that you are charging a fee for your buyers to use Paypal, that is against Paypal's TOS and is a contract violation. (I believe that is true whether you state "fees are included" or list the fee separately.) If you factor in the fee without stating that it's included, then you are not violating Paypal's TOS.

leXis just mentioned it in the post above, but here's what I mentioned a few pages ago: "The essence behind Paypal having this policy in effect was listed way back in this thread. They are a business too, and they don't want people saying "$10 for this item if you pay by money order, but it'll be $10.40 if you use Paypal". That makes people more likely to avoid using Paypal, and they don't want that.

leXis stated it rather concisely and very well: the policy in Paypal's TOS isn't about ethics or whether it's "morally right" to overcharge people. It's about business, pure and simple. Paypal is a business, they are in it for profit. If you charge a higher price for Paypal customers and a lower price for Money Order customers, you're giving buyers an incentive not to use Paypal. And of course Paypal wouldn't want you to take your business elsewhere.

For me, the ethical core of this particular issue is whether a seller sticks to their word. They signed a contract with Paypal. By blatantly violating that contract, it discourages me from dealing with them. If they're so willing to disregard one contract, why should I enter into a business agreement with that person?

As for factoring in the fees... I mentioned that a couple pages ago too: So, "hiding" those incremental costs by just raising the original sales price for all buyers (regardless of payment method) is completely in keeping with Paypal's TOS. It's standard business practice to factor overhead cost into the retail price of goods, be it on a large scale or a small one. Retail merchants like Target or Wal-mart (and just about every other retail store out there) factor credit card fees (charged to merchants by CC companies) into all of their prices... if you buy something with cash, you're getting overcharged by a small amount. It's just how general retail business works. And there's not a sign at the register saying "oh, by the way... you're going to be charged an extra 1% to cover our credit card fees." It's just included.

If a seller decides an item is really worth $5 to them, but lists it at $10 to cover the cost of Paypal fees, a padded envelope, gas to get to the post office, etc... does it really matter? If the item is worth $10 to me as a buyer, I don't care how the seller came up with that price. What I care about is someone who will adhere to the terms of their business agreements, and that includes Paypal's TOS.

I understand what you're saying about people paying the fees either way, but I think we're actually debating two slightly different issues. I think your platform is debating whether the fees themselves are ethical, and whether buyers should be paying them. (Let me know if I'm understanding that incorrectly.) While I'm debating the ethics of abiding by or violating the specific Paypal TOS contract.... not whether the contract itself is ethical. If that makes sense.

 

I've been reading this thread off and on since it started, for the most part as just a curiosity, but within the last few weeks it seems to me that I've been seeing a lot more sellers stating that an extra (5% !!!) fee will be charged on top of their stated price, and I've found that it really, really is starting to piss me off.

The minute I see the seller charging fees, I immediately hit the back button. I don't care how beautiful the doll/outfit/wig/etc is, it rubs me the wrong way, on top of it being against Paypal's rules.

If you're in a store, and you pay by credit card, you pay exactly the same amount as the person before you who paid cash, even though the store is charged a fee by the card company for the privilege of using cards.

With us here in the doll hobby, there isn't really an alternate option. Nobody takes money orders or checks, so asking for Paypal fees, for a service we have no choice but to use, just makes the seller look greedy. I'd rather give my money to someone else.

 

Tygati,

I respect what you're saying. However, if you were hosting a GO or a split, would you feel the same? Would you be willing to pay all the fees on a $1500+ order? I don't charge PP fees if I'm selling goods. I also don't believe it's fair business practice. However, if a large order is being placed to a third party, and there are several "buyers", I feel it's only fair that all involved pay there own fees just as if they were placing the order themselves.

 

I don't quite get what you're saying andergib. All tygati mentioned were sellers, not GO or split hosts. Where did you get the idea that she was against ppfees for absolutely everything in this hobby? Tbh, what you're saying is exactly what she's saying. Sellers asking buyers to pay for the ppfees is unfair business practice

Adding to what I've said several times in this thread; I've noticed there were one or two tiny BJD COMPANIES that ask you to pay for the fees. An actual business. It's like Walmart asking you to pay for the privilige of using your own money!

 

Correct, Adhara. Group Orders are an entirely different issue.

I've seen at least one of the companies, as well. Completely baffled me. A business should know better. :/

Although, here's food for thought. I have noticed that a high percentage of marketplace sellers who ask for fees tend to be overseas, frequently those in Asian countries. Do you think that there's a cultural difference involved, which makes this group of persons more likely to see nothing wrong with what they're doing?

 

Because there's the whole wall of text, so they just skipped it?

And if they've got thier own little forums and had convinient (& probably cheaper)ways to have transactions within their own country, then they wouldnt participate in Doa as much as some would, and therefore they wouldnt know that asking PP fees are frowned upon?

TBH, I was never bothered to read PP's TOS so the pp fee-thingy had never occurred to me.... till i went to the MP.

 

If a person is really insistent on adding an additional 5% in order to cover their Paypal fees, why not simply call it a "handling fee"? Paypal's own TOS is clear that adding a "handling fee" is alright.

Besides, the no-adding-any-surcharge rules appears to only applies to credit card payments. So if you pay from your bank account, or your paypal balance, then those can have added fees.

 

It makes sense to just make the item cost more to cover for the pp fees. Hmm I dont know why people dont do that...

But the thing that REALLY ticks me off is when I see people charging 4.. 5% when Im pretty sure USA pp fees are like 3% only O__o;;

 

This is something that I also do not understand.

 

Bloodberryt Rose : for japan it is only 3.9% + 50 yens ! if the people want more... he want more money...

 

I heartily agree. It is unethical and clearly against Paypal's TOS; most of the sellers charging 4-5% for their fees have items that are already highly priced. For example, the two that I saw in the Marketplace this morning were selling clothing with costs upwards of 65$ a set. Throwing 4-5% more on top of an already inflated price is ridiculous. And should not be allowed in Marketplace transactions.

 

I agree with you completely re: item cost.

As for the percentages, it varies some by country, from what I've heard. There can also be additional fees for currency exchange, which might be the reason for some of the higher percentage quotes if people sell internationally. Do I like it? Well... no. But there is a variance in the actual fees, so if people are charging for them, they're probably trying to cover their bases in that regard. If it gets that complicated, though, I'd think it more fair to use one of the fee calculator things to get an accurate amount rather than a guesstimated one (which could be inflated).

 

Paypal does charge higher fees if the buyer is in a different country than the seller. I have ran into this before.

It's pretty annoying to be slapped with high fee's for even higher shipping. ie: someone in the U.K. or Russia wants a heavier big item mailed. 25.00 to 33.00 shipping and then I get hit with the fees for that + the increased fees because of the exchange rate. Keep in mind that the fees are whittling away at the actual item price.

BTW: I'm not complaining about the regular 3% + .35 that paypal normally charges, and I don't charge fees.

 

Again BTW: In some countries it is/was alright for them to charge fees on top of the price. I think in the U.K. or Australia? I know someone sued paypal and it was big court case. In that country it is The paypal / user agreement is different and it is in agreement with paypal TOS to charge fees on top of the price.