Paypal fees discussion

Why is there even a problem with losing out on shipping fees? Package up the doll and take it to the post office and get a quote to send it to your buyers destination, then PM them with the final price. That isn't that difficult. If you can't get to the Post Office they have online shipping quote generators don't they? All you need to do is weigh and measure your parcel. Promise the buyer that if there is an overestimate you will refund the difference through Paypal (you know, that place where you pay the fees!) and then everybody is happy.

I think some sellers just want the money but don't want to make the effort necessary to get a sale and recoup their shipping costs. Being in the UK I often don't charge anything for packaging and sometimes cover a bit of the shipping cost because it's expensive to send internationally from here. As a seller you have to think whether you really want the sale in the first place, if you do then make some effort, and that includes paying fees that you are required to pay by the service provider in the first place!

 

I personally would never ask or expect a buyer to cover the fees - I would always incur them myself. PayPal provides a safe and convenient method of paying for things online, so I don't have any issues with the fees myself and I think they are justified.I have been using PayPal for a long time and I have had to open a few disputes in that time. I would imagine that if PayPal didn't charge the fees they wouldn't be able to offer the very good service that they do.

What really does annoy me is sellers who insist on payment as a 'gift'. I would never do this myself and I really don't understand why others do. If we didn't sell items via forums then we would have to use sites such as eBay, where we incur two types of fees. At least by selling on the forums we don't have to pay auction site fees, so we should count ourselves lucky!

 

But isn't it so that either (not buyer or receiver) doesn't need to pay the fee, if the buyer has the money on balance. I thought the fees were added if you pay via cc. Or so it has been for couple of times..

That's why I don't add the pp money to the price and I have asked for people to pay the fee if they pay with cc, since I have wanted to give the chance to avoid the fee's if the buyer has the money on their balance. Have I been wrong the whole time?

Oh well, since everyone seems to be so annoyed by sellers asking for pp charges, maybe i'll just start inputting the fee to the original prices, like everyone else seems to do... :p

 

I'm nor sure what the rules are in your country. They differ country to country. Paypal fees in the U.S. used to depend on what kind of account you had and if you took CC's. It has changed now to personal and business and a seller is charged unless it is marked personal and there still are some fees if you cross borders with the personal option.

I have a premiere paypal account and before they changed it get charged for any and all payments, and had to state over and over with some people, because they believe since they had a balance there were no fees.

I have mixed feelings about the fees. A cheap item 1.00 to 5.00 the fees take up a large percentage of your sale, 35% on 1.00 item. On expensive items it's not so bad only 3 or 4 percent of course paypal takes fee out of the shipping and that can add up and be kind of high on international shipping that might be $30.00 or more.

edit:

In the U.S. Paypal charges a higher percentage for cross border payments and they also charge the higher rate for whatever shipping is also.

I normally do not charge paypal fees but I did for a while on international shipping (on the shipping only). Shipping things outside the country just was more difficult with customs, packaging, insurance and waiting on the buyer to get it, plus paypal charges higher fees.

 

It's not about "slipping fees into the price unnoticed". It's making any costs the seller has not the buyer's concern, responsibility or problem. The buyer pays X amount and that's it. It's not the same as selling something for X plus an undisclosed amount on top of that, because how is a buyer supposed to know what kind of Paypal account the seller has and know the percentage of fees Paypal charges the seller for making use of Paypal's services?

Paypal fees are what Paypal charges the seller for making use of a service (receiving money). The buyer is not making use of that service, but is supposed to pay for it? What if Paypal would charge buyers a fee for sending money, would you then accept buyers who tell you to deduct that fee from your selling price?

Also, it may not be illegal to charge Paypal fees and you won't go to jail for it, but it is against Paypal's TOS. You agreed with Paypal's rules when you opened your account and you agree with them when you continue to use Paypal.

 

I always Ask my buyers to send money as a gift because the fees are smaller. So even if they don't check for "pay the fees" I don't lose too much. and I also Always send money as à gift for the same reason
When you already have to lower a lot the price of an item it really sucks to lose even more money because of fees >.>

 

... And if someone reports you for doing that, or if PayPal catches you doing it themselves, they'll suspend your account because it's a violation of their terms of service.

 

I don't ask anymore from my buyers after they've paid unless there was a major issue with my calculation of the shipping, in which case I'd be happy to refund them if they did not want to pay the full shipping cost. This has thankfully never happened because I'm careful and always find out the true shipping costs before sending the full bill to the buyer. Often I send free within the UK because it's a minor cost to cover for the sake of an easy sale.

As for paypal fees...I don't like charging them and often I only charge them on shipping because that's an amount that I need complete. However if I were ever to charge them I would add them into the base price rather than making them the concern of the buyer. There's nothing I dislike more than a seller telling the buyer to add the fees on themselves. Ugh. Mostly though, I just don't do it.

 

The second a seller asks me to send payment via the personal/gift option, I immediately cancel the sale. There is no recourse for buyers who use that option, and as far as I am concerned, it is pretty shady on the seller's part to insist on it. I won't buy from people who ask for paypal fees, and this includes canceling a sale from Tata's Paradise after learning they take on the fee once you get to the check out. It's ridiculous an actual company would try and charge for fees.

Fees are the cost of using Paypal, which allows you to get payments in a timely and easy manner and to process credit card payments which are not free for businesses to use. I never ask for fees on my sale. I certainly am not going to cover them for another seller. It's cheap behaviour.

 

Before reading this thread I didn't even know it was illegal! Why do paypal allow you to calculate the fees exactly if you can't charge them? Ô_o that seems very weird to me!

 

You really need to read the agreements that you accept as a condition of using the business. This is pulled straight off of Paypal's Canada site:




4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.
4.1 Réception de paiements personnels. Si vous vendez des biens ou des services, vous ne pouvez pas demander à l'acheteur de vous payer cet achat au moyen d'un paiement personnel. Si vous le faites, PayPal peut vous retirer la possibilité d'accepter les paiements personnels.


4.6 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.
4.6 Pas de frais supplémentaires. Vous acceptez de ne pas imposer de frais supplémentaires ou d'autres frais pour l'acceptation de PayPal comme mode de paiement. Vous pouvez facturer des frais de traitement en relation avec la vente de biens ou services, tant que ces frais ne constituent pas des frais supplémentaires et ne dépassent pas les frais de traitement facturés pour les transactions sans PayPal.


Incidentally, this wording is exactly the same on the US site.

 

This. The only people I would send payment too as a personal payment or gift are people I know and trust, namely close friends, it offers zero protection to the buyer so if a seller on here or anywhere else asked for it I'd either cancel the transaction or send as a proper payment for goods/services. It really isn't a buyers responsibly to pick up the tab for a sellers pp fees, if they want to cover it, it should be included in the upfront cost the same way shipping and packaging is if needed.

 

So they don't get sued for having a hidden charge scheme in the countries in which such things are illegal. Like mine. Transparency in trading is a legal requirement here and a lot of other countries.

Personally, and I suspect I've said this here before, I will walk away from any sale that mentions my having to pay the fee or pay via gift payment. I don't care who you are or how much I want that thing, forget it. Those are deal breakers for me.

I'm especially astounded by the people who're fine with personal payments on both sides, why would you put yourself at that kind of monetary risk when you're talking the levels of money that routinely change hands here? You have NO protection whatsoever AND you're breaking possibly the law (dependent on location) and certainly the terms of service of Paypal in doing so.

 

Check which country someone commenting is from. In the U.S.A. it's not illegal some people get "against Paypal Terms of Service" and illegal mixed up. btw it's totally alright with paypal to pad your selling price with the fees but of course that reduces the buyers.

 

By the way for everyone that says just pad the fees into the shipping, it's actually hard to do that here on DOA. On this page alone their are:

2 people from the USA, maybe

2 people from Canada

1 person from France

1 person from the Netherlands

1 person from Finland

1 person from Wales

and 4 people from the U.K.

Probably if I send a 1 pound package to each of you I'm going to get a lot of different quotes from USPS for each country, so the only way to make sure that doesn't happen is to limit sales to your own country.

We have all seen people put things up for sale only in their country and then someone says in their thread I would buy but you don't ship to my _____ country.

Sometimes the post office is an ounce or two different from my scale and sometimes it does make a significant difference in shipping price.

 

Yes but many of us who are screaming it is against the law are from the UK where it is actually illegal to do so. And even if it is just against the terms and services is still shouldn't be done and i can see why people would object to it if they don't want to lose their Paypal accounts. Both are fully understandable concerns.

Plus speaking of Ebay, lets look at the fees they charge the seller shall we compared to here where it is FREE! You lose, on listing it (unless they do a specail free listing) then you lose out money on the final sale off the item off Ebay and then Paypal take their cut. You don't see people on Ebay putting in their comments "Oh on top of the selling prince you see, when you send me a payment could you also had extra for Ebay and Paypal fees!" Because Ebay would close your sorry ass down so quickly. Where as here it is free to list, DoA don't take a cut, you just have the Paypal fees.

Plus you can have the item on here for as long as it sells or you take it down. And not a set certain day listing like Ebay.

Yes it can be tricky to figure out how much you are getting, but to be honest that is your responsibility to work out when you put the actual price of the item up. I would cut a sale with anyone who tried to add fee's after the sale. Because it is WRONG to do so, and depending on location illegal.

And as for making it a personal payment you are just leaving your self open to get conned and to have people run off with your money. Because on of the best things about Paypal is the protection it does give you for online buying, if things go wrong Paypal can get your money back for you. Unless you have been a bit stupid and marked it as a gift. The ONLY time i have asked for it to be marked as a gift is when i was running a charity event and when people where giving me the money for the donations i asked that they marked it as a gift so the whole thing went to charity. But they where GIVING it to charity.

 

Just to make sure everyone knows. I don't charge fees on things I sell here. I really like the marketplace here and it's great that DOA sponsors it.


I sympathize with the people who maybe can't really afford to just take the paypal fees in stride. They do add up.

 

They could always work out costs in advance and take it into accout when they charge for the item.

 

Chrystika: I think you're missing the point of what's been said, not that sellers are expected to eat the costs but rather if they simply factor them into their up front cost buyers generally don't have a problem and they're not breaking any TOS's. It's when someone turns around after prices are agreed and asks for paypal fees on top that people aren't always happy about.

As an example it's totally normal practice to factor costs like that into the overall cost of things if you're offering a service or your own products, you factor in things like materials, time, overheads and how much you want to make profit wise, things like paypal feels would fall into overheads, meaning it doesn't eat into your profits. I know we're talking about dolls, clothes etc being sold second hand which generally isn't done for profit but the principal's the same, to cover things like PP fees so you're not making a loss but you're not putting a potential buyer's nose out of joint by asking afterwards which is against Payapl's TOS, and you're not taking a loss on it.

 

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It adds up for buyers too, especially if they are buyers that also sell and don't charge buyers paypal fees, as well as eat the fees for other sellers if they're okay with it. Don't you see how some people could be taking the hit doubly? X.x If people "can't afford" to take the paypal fees, I would say they're in the wrong hobby to begin with, but more than that, if they "can't afford" to follow the rules, they shouldn't be selling at all. It's really irresponsible.