Paypal fees discussion

I fully agree too ^^

 

It's interesting the way you phrase that. I don't know about the laws of the UK, but in the US there is no law against charging paypal fees if one were to do that, nor is there a "right" or "wrong" way to send payments when the seller is not a merchant specifically selling as part of a business. For a person rehoming their personal stuff on personal time, a personal payment seems appropriate. Insistence that PayPal get a cut of the transaction money just seems strange, since it is leaving cash on the table. If someone gave you a coupon for an item you were going to buy anyway, would you seriously not use the coupon just so the store can get more money from you?

To answer your question, sure, if I had multiple buyers who expressed interest in a small item I'm selling, of course I would sell to the one who gave me the best deal when it's the same price to them either way. I'd have to be crazy to accept a poorer deal from Person A when a better one was available from Person B.

That's not really true, though. Insurance through the postal carrier is what protects from package loss or damage. For something as expensive as a doll, I absolutely recommend the buyer purchase insurance on the package. If you as the buyer do not know whether you'll get insurance or the doll will be packaged correctly, then ask the question of your seller upfront. They should be happy to answer and make sure you're taken care of.

 

I'm afraid your analogy is off. Someone just giving me a coupon to save money at a store is not the same thing as me intrusting my money to strangers and hoping they don't rip me off if I send it to them through personal payment, by trying to save a few dollars. Thusly paypal is a business and has every right to charge whatever fee's they want/need to make sure their business stays open. If you don't want to pay their fees then don't use there services simple as that. But don't expect other people to possible put their money on the line just because you don't feel that paypal should get a "cut of the transaction" since this IS their website we're using.

Also, again you're assuming that the seller will be honest and do the right thing, which is really what this is all about. Or that the seller will even send the package once I send the money. And if I send the money using personal payment I can't even file a paypal claim because I basically told paypal that this wasn't a business transaction and I wasn't expecting anything in return. This isn't about trying to spare someone hurt feelings by not wanting to send my money through personal payment, this is about making sure neither of us gets stiffed in the end.

 

Yes, you are right, bad analogy. Sorry.

Would you feel differently about trusting the seller / using personal payment if the "online stranger" were to provide you with ample third-party feedback and a many-year history of rehoming their spare personal goodies online? (they'd have incentive not to sully that reputation, which is protection for the buyer).

Heh, I remember using PayPal when they first started and they had zero fees for *personal* accounts, for anything, ever. Once they became ubiquitous, that service stopped - there was no other equivalent option for individual people to use so it was the perfect time to start making money from everyone, not just business accounts. Good business sense. But it sucks for the individual rehoming their stuff.

 

Incidently, this has nothing to do with the law of the UK, or the US. It's all to do with the TOS of Paypal, which explicit state that if you go against it (which you do), they have grounds to ban your account and maybe even ever having an account with them again.

To me, a business transaction is when you explicitly pay for or trade something in equal value. You don't have to be a business to do a transaction - for instance, I expect my seller to act responsibly (like a business does) if there's a problem like a faulty item, or a missing package when I paid for insurance. Even Paypal states that their personal payments are for sending money to family and friends - not once does it mention personal payments are for paying for items.

It has nothing to do with the integrity of the seller or their feedback, we buyers who follow the rules just like to protect our own hides. If you stop the transaction based on this, please don't be surprised if you get bad feedback and/or reported to Paypal.

Well, you just add in the paypal fees in the original price. You said so yourself, it's not illegal to charge fees in the US, so why not just add the $X extra to cover fees?

 

Nope. I don't care how glowing a person's feedback is, I would never send things via personal payment unless they were people I actually knew in person and considered an actual friend. A seller is only as good as their behaviour during their current transaction, and all one needs to do is glance at the problem transactions forum to see formerly trustworthy sellers with years of positive feedback go off the deep end and cheat people.

I find it off that a seller would take offense to a buyer having issues with the seller outright wanting them to violate Paypal's ToS, especially since personal payments of any kind are clearly listed as not being eligible for Paypal purchase protection in the Paypal User Agreement. To use a bad analogy, it's like someone being offended that their sexual partner asked them to use a condom or dental dam.

I have had a Paypal account long enough that when I joined Paypal, they actually gave me money to sign up. I remember the lack of fees associated with personal accounts, and I also remember the strict dollar amount limitations they had. One doll sale was enough to have your fee-less account taken away, so really, not much lost there. Paypal has always had fees for people to use their service. This is nothing new.

 

Or even just go, period, whether the intent was to cheat someone or not. Sellers and/or customizers (or doll companies themselves, and I've had that happen) just up and vanish outta nowhere, it's happened numerous times (as has been chronicled extensively in said problem transactions forum). It's merely good business sense to conduct one's Paypal business in the safest way possible, which in this case involves giving oneself a way out should the seller welch for whatever reason. I only trust feedback to a certain point, and I never, ever trust feedback enough to send money without giving myself a way to at least attempt to get it back. The only person I am willing to send personal payments to is someone I've known for years who is a close personal friend of mine.

I admit, I would side-eye anyone who refuses to sell to someone who won't go against the Paypal TOS and send funds via personal payment to avoid fees. It makes me decide that I wouldn't sell to them, either. I'm a bigtime stickler for following rules and regulations in business contracts of any kind -- I won't underdeclare items, I won't ship expensive items without insurance, and I won't go against Paypal's TOS. My money's too valuable to risk, and I prefer to take every precaution necessary to keep my money safe -- and I expect others to respect that decision and do likewise. Words on the internet mean things, and I have a big, BIG problem conducting business with anyone who says anywhere that they expect other people to bend laws/violate terms of service in a transaction.

With regards to fees, though -- I don't sell a lot, and I haven't really sold much that's overly expensive. If I did I would simply build a small amount into the price of the item to cover the fees -- or just eat the fees, depending on the price of the item. Easiest that way, and the most honest. It's like paying interest on a credit card. I know the credit card company charges a fee to allow me the privilege of using their service, and Paypal is the same way (with the added bonus that it ISN'T interest so it's actually reasonable, unlike oh so many cards).

 

I see that you, and others on this thread, have pretty strong opinions on the matter of personal vs purchase payment types. No problem, I respect that. I sure wasn't expecting that coming in, but I can respect it.

There is one thing that bothers me a great deal about what you said, though. I don't think it's right to give negative feedback to a seller unilaterally just because they ASKED for payment via personal payments, and for no other reason. Asking a question is all about negotiating the final terms that the deal will take place in. If paying by personal payment is a deal-breaker for you that's fine, then just say no and don't buy from that person, or say no and see if they'll sell to you anyway. The problem is that there are sellers -- not unlike myself -- who have spotless records accepting personal payments, as to them that is the norm in the doll hobby. I would hate to be written up by someone being overzealous who didn't at least talk to me about their opposition first.

Like we're doing in this thread. Y'know, talking about it.

I am learning very quickly that (at least some parts of?) the culture on DoA would prefer this. Normally I'd charge what I thought was fair for my items and leave it at that. But if people find it more acceptable to pay a higher price overall and use the PayPal "purchase" option, then I can just advertise a single price with all fees built in instead.

Since I cannot look at DoA's marketplace yet, this is a useful discussion to learn what the transaction culture is like around here, for when I do start selling there later on. Thank you for your input.

 

That's not quite what she said, though. What she said was that she'd give bad feedback to someone who refused to sell unless the payment was given via personal Paypal money transfer. That's a little different from someone just requesting that, but being willing to discuss the alternatives. I'm with her on this one -- if someone flat refused to sell unless sent money via personal payment, I'd probably leave a bit of negative feedback myself.

The transaction culture has a great deal less to do with 'paying higher prices' and a LOT more to do with 'covering one's ass during a transaction'. Look at it from a buyer's perspective: say you're (general you is in effect) purchasing a doll for some large amount, say...oh, $600. You pay via personal payment, because the seller has requested it to dodge the fees. The seller then proceeds to vanish, ignoring your emails and PMs, and leaving you no word. Because you sent your money via personal payment, you have exactly zero way of getting your money back, so you are now out both $600 and the doll you purchased. Some people are more lax. A lot of people aren't willing to put what could potentially be hundreds of dollars on the line just so the seller can save some fees. Look at it from that perspective. It's the same reason you'll find an intense debate over the issue of marking down the value of packages for overseas shipping. Some of us are just far, far more stubborn about it.

 

Ah, thank you for the clarification. I see the difference now. I'd be pretty preturbed too if a seller wasn't willing to discuss any particular aspect of a deal I had a question about, not just payment type. Different things are important to different people, so customer service and communication are paramount.

I would hope that, if you found yourself in such a situation where a seller wanted a personal payment but you did not wish to send one as a buyer, that being asked to pay a little more for the peace of mind that comes with "purchase" would be an acceptable option to you if the seller proposed it. Otherwise, if you hold the seller to the original price, you are effectively holding their rep hostage: "sell to me for this price by this payment method, or else!" As long as both the buyer and the seller are willing to meet in the middle, all's well.

I guess it'd be easier to build the appropriate CYA cost into the price up front and avoid the hassle of negotiating it on the back end. That seems to be what I'm hearing here, yes?

Well, these two are directly related. To get peace of mind and CYA in a transaction, it does cost more. No problems whatsoever if that is worth the price to a buyer. They just have to be willing to be the one to fund it (either directly or indirectly).

I do a lot of doll buying myself, way more than I do selling, so I can understand both the buyer's POV and seller's POV on each transaction. I'm only wanting to make everybody happy in the deal when I sell stuff off. Yeah, you can't make all the people happy all the time, but that's not going to stop me from trying to anyway .

 

If they sprang that one on me after posting the doll at X price? Yeah no, that's not acceptable. You don't jack the price of an item after posting it, and there's no item out there - and no reputation out there - that's worth my compromising my principles on that.

Yes.

 

Understood. I see there are people here who feel very strongly about this topic, and I thank you for sharing your views. In light of that, that is how I shall expect to handle transactions in the forums at a later date. I'm glad I asked first.

 

Amberian Dawn - I'm not sure if you have access to the problem transactions forum yet or not since you don't seem to have the MP access yet, but when you do, even a CURSORY read through it will show you in a matter of minutes why many people have strong opinions on this.

You have to understand that anyone in this hobby for longer than about a year probably has a war story to tell about getting ripped off either by a private buyer/seller or by a company up and vanishing, many of us have MORE than one and it's not unusual for the person or company involved to have had glowing feedback before that transaction. Third party assurance can only go so far when personal experience teaches you to make GOOD and sure you have every form of protection in place for your money, especially when we're talking hundreds and sometimes thousands of $'s changing hands.

We have to protect ourselves because we've seen it happen, time and time again and have learnt from eachothers misfortunes to the point where many people have personal lists of traders they won't deal with anymore. Someone demanding only personal payments or springing fees on their buyers out of nowhere during negotiations is likely to end up on many of them. I know that person would end up on mine and generally speaking, if the info at the top of a sales thread mentions the dreaded "+X% ppfees" I'm backbuttoning out of there before I even LOOK at the goods on show. It is simply not worth the hassle of dealing with a seller unwilling to abide by the PP ToS and indeed, in my country, THE LAW.

 

@ Amberian Dawn - I fully agree with Lulu. I can tell you some horror stories from my time in the hobby too. My first few market place transactions where horrible. And something like my 2nd transaction i got fully conned, and the person who conned me STILL has nice shiny feedback and people STILL go on how great she is because apparently most of the time she is good. But i know 3 or 4 people she has conned in the same way. It was so bad i very nearly gave up being on the marketplace at all.

I also know of stories where people have been good examples to the community for years, and then one day have pulled a really big con and have been left with a lot of peoples money and dolls. And i agree with Lulu again you should read on these because companies have done it too.

I also do the same if i see the +X% pp fees I even saw one the other day that had the cheek to say. +X% pp fees (+ X amount of money) on top! I am even the same when it is small items because i don't want to get ripped off again. Or lose my paypal account, or break the law.

I have no issues with someone who works out what the fees are going to be and include them in the up front price. Because that way it is not illegal, it is not against the ToS for Paypal and it is very easy to decide whether i am going to pay that for the item.

Oh and i would just like to point out, i think paypal are very jusitified in charging a fee because of the insurance and safety it gives you for buying online.

 

Like Tez said, my question (and statement) was based upon your answer of

If you had explicitly said "I'm selling this doll to you, Person A", found out that they don't want to send personal payments, and THEN said "No, I'm not selling it to you", then that is grounds for flaky feedback (Promising to sell a doll then going back on it).

If you had multiple buyers, then sure, pick whichever one you want, as long as you don't promise the others you're selling your doll/items to them.

I'm surprised that wanting to adhere to the Law (and/or TOS/T&C) is considered a pretty strong opinion. I'm not saying you don't, but I have a 'pretty strong' moral code, and it refuses to let me break the rules I agree to, whether it's my Government's law by living here or because I signed an agreement with Paypal NOT to break them.

In a really pedantic way, you're insulting the buyer's integrity when you say "I refuse to sell to buyers who adhere to the TOS of Paypal. They're not courteous enough to save me a few dollars, so obviously the doll won't go to a good home if I sell it to them."

Who said my home wasn't as good as someone who sends payment as personal? :P

 

Hi
I have actually had to say I wouldn't to sell to someone, to get them agree to insure a doll part. I don't remember what it was, probably a head or part of a limited doll that wasn't available any more. I'm pretty sure it was a buyer in south america somewhere maybe Brazil.

 

Oh, never mind. Whoopsie.

 

Totally agree on asking for more for the doll instead of asking for the buyer to pay for the fee...

 

I wonder if someone here can help me? I spoke to a dealer (who runs a big online doll store) recently about layaway, and asked if they accepted paypal. She said yes, but that they would charge me fees.

I have never been charged fees by a retailer, and thought it was illegal for them to do so. Should I say something to them about this?

I just want to make sure my facts are straight before I talk to them about it, and although the PayPal user Agreement says, "For Purchase Payments, the recipient of the payment will always pay the Fee."

What do you think?

 

I would read up on the paypal agreement for your country and quote that to them.