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Paypal fees discussion

Jul 23, 2007

    1. I'm sure that if someone paid NOT using paypal, she'd drop the price back to what it would have been without fees.
       
    2. What really bothers me -- and this is something I've had come up multiple times -- is sales where the person doesn't say upfront that paypal fees will be charged. I've bought things before where there was no mention of paypal fees in the thread, and then when the seller invoiced me they included 4% paypal fees. I hadn't accounted for that cost when I was deciding if I could afford the purchase, but since I'd already agreed to buy I didn't feel like I could back out.

      In retrospect I probably should have backed out at that point. If that ever happens again I'll definitely take it up with the seller.
       
    3. Not to put to fine a point on it but running a group order is a lot more complicated than just hitting the send button. :sweat I've run a few (several successful and one refunded) and between writing PMs to confirm orders, keeping track of said order, writing to let people know why the order is not here yet, writing to let people know said order is received, packing the items, leaving feedback, checking to make sure all items were received, it's a lot of work. I've spent total a good 6+ hours on some of the larger ones I ran, maybe longer.

      I generally sell a lot more than I buy, so I am writing this more from the perspective of a seller.

      Comicbookartistboi, the reason why the fee is borne by the seller rather than the buyer is because they're the ones actually receiving the credit card payment. Credit card companies charge all sellers to receive payment. How would you feel if say Target, Borders Books, Staples, or Toys R Us all decided to pass on the fees they get charged by credit cards to their potential buyers? PayPal charges a fee to those with Premier or business accounts because they are accepting those credit card payments for you. Again, how would you feel if say Leeke, Volks, DoD decided to charge their buyers for any fees they incur by accepting PayPal? Because of PayPal, I can accept credit card payments just like a business, which is really what you are when you are selling enough to need to upgrade.

      I sold a BlueFairy PocketFairy to Annetta who lives in Italy. In 1999, when PayPal was not the juggernaut it is now, I would have had to give Annetta either my bank account to have a bank transfer or waited for 2 or so weeks anxiously to receive cash in the mail. Now, I can receive payment via PayPal nearly instantaneously. It does benefit sellers as well as buyers.

      Is PayPal perfect? No. They could do a better job of offering protection to sellers who ship internationally. But do I think someone else ought to pay my fees since I am technically a small business, the answer is no, it is a cost to doing business.

      I don't buy from people who charge fees, I don't want to support them no matter how much I might want an item. I know of a lot of successful sellers who request you pay their fees, but I personally won't buy from them. I even try to avoid doing group orders now from people who charge fees and don't have a separate account for those paying with balance.
       
    4. I dunno if anyone experienced this, but I know with universities, if you pay for your tuition with credit or debit cards, they often require you to cover the service fees. They don't pay for those fees because they chose that method. This forces those people who uses that type of payment to pay it. However, people who pay with checks, money orders or cash don't have to pay it. I think the situation with Paypal is quite similar.

      In response to my comment about including Paypal fees in the total cost, it's because it's the number one type of payment that I receive over cash, money orders and checks.

      @Lizzard: I try not to disregard those who wants to pay with a different method. I wouldn't want to put someone in an unfair position especailly when the intention is to avoid those fees. None of us like them after all.
       
    5. I haven't gone through all of this, but I don't think anyone's mentioned it as a fee for convience of the buyer. Lolly mentioned that she buys more when she doesn't have to go out and buy a money transfer (for which I think both ends are charged fees, if memory serves me).

      I'm no fan of corporations, and honestly my preferred form of payment would be an enveloped stuffed with CASH, BUT... there's so much risk in that if it gets stolen that its not worth it. In the end, I charge fees because I don't do this as any sort of business. If I were trying to run a business it would have to be calculated in as cost of business. But this to me is a hobby, and "cost of hobby" is already so high, that asking someone else to not COST me extra is no big deal. That's all I ask, mostly... don't cost me something that I'm already paying through the teeth for.

      I don't mind breaking out the calculater as a buyer. As long as I'm informed up front, I think doing your own calculations just makes you a responsible person. (especially responsible with money.) I think that all too often in our consumer driven society we're told to just pay what we're told to pay, and no one is really trained in the art of negotiating anymore. If you can't negotiate a price down when you buy, how are you supposed to know how to negotiate a price up when you sell? I think negotiations can be fun if they're friendly enough, and the back and forth gives you a chance to get to know eachother. One of my best dolly friends was made through a sale/purchase transaction.
       
    6. How do they get away with it? I didn't know they weren't supossed to! I'll keep that in mind from now on when buying things, and I'll remember to add the fee into the original price of any items I sell. Thank you for informing me on all this!
       
    7. I've been in on a few group orders, and believe me, I know how difficult they are. I appreciate the efforts of the person running the order, and I think that refunding them their Paypal fees is more than a courtesy, it's a necessity.

      Linda S.
      galatia9
       
    8. I just add the fee into whatever I am selling, unless it's a group order. Why should I pay for what you want?
       
    9. One of business's general maxims to the seller has always been: GTC (Get The Cash) - offer the buyer as many payment options as you can, thereby increasing the likelihood the buyer will choose to do business with you. The trajectory of strategies for facilitating sales historically has been to offer sellers increasingly efficient, easy ways through which they 'persuade' buyers to purchase by making the act of purchase virtually painless to the buyer. Overall, it's easy enough to find interested people; it's much harder persuading them to commit their funds.

      The nutshell: sellers embrace a variety of payment services to ensure their potential buying audience is as large as possible. In warm-fuzzy speak, this is called Customer-Focused Sales.

      Hence, credit card companies charge fees to sellers so sellers can offer this or that credit card as a payment option on behalf of their buyers. And PayPal charges fees to sellers so sellers can offer PayPal as a payment option - again, on behalf of the buyer.

      These are not buyer services. They are seller services. And this is why both credit card companies and PayPal have Terms of Service that prohibit passing the fees along to their customers. Want to see a store get reprimanded and potentially have their Visa privileges yanked for passing fees on to customers? Report the shop to Visa! I once did ... the practice stopped immediately.

      If you are selling and being totally above board about your profits and losses, service fees are considered a cost of doing business for tax purposes. In the end, this is how you "get back" what you appear to have lost in the primary transaction.

      If you are selling small and under-the-board, then build your fees into your prices, keep quiet about it and carry on hoping this goes unnoticed and nobody reports you.

      If you are selling large, then don't even mention the word "fees."

      If you do mention fees and you aren't running a group order, then I'm afraid we won't be doing business.

      Lisa
       
    10. I eat the cost when I'm the seller, now you expect me to eat it when I'm the buyer? No thanks.

      I remember seeing it in the TOS when I signed up in 2001. I really wish it was a rule here on DoA, at least for consistency's sake!
       
    11. The seller shouldn't charge more for the item outright, because some people pay using non-CC Paypal, which doesn't involve those fees- so those paying that way shouldn't suffer paying extra "just in case someone wants to pay using CC Paypal".

      I don't charge it myself and if I really want the item I'd rather suck it up and pay whatever the seller demands [as long as it was stated in the original selling thread and I knew in advance what I'll have to pay] rather than start a "that's illegal, I'll report you!" battle. All in all, everyone get what they want... I know it's not the most right thing to do, to let a seller get away with that when it's illegal- but it I 8really* want the item they're selling, I wouldn't pass it up and regret for a looong time just "to be right".
       
    12. Premeire accounts get charged fees on all payments, including non-CC.
       
    13. I think that if you want to charge the fees you could at least do it so that the buyer doesn't know: Set the price so that you won't lose to much. I don't like to buy from persons who write after the price "+ 4 percent paypal fees", especially not since I found out that it was illegal. Why should it be the buyers problem, when it's the seller who chooses how he/she wants the money? Not that it's cheaper to do it by bank transfer XP
       
    14. Really? O.o. I've never heard that before. Maybe I didn't get to work with too many people who have a premier account? I've only heard about sellers asking their buyers to cover for CC Paypal fees, never for non-CC... Is it because I just didn't look at the right threads, or are the fees for non-CC Paypal just lower? [I was just charged 6% fees for receiving CC Paypal payment yesterday... That's crazy].

      Anyhow, thank you for enlightening me, I didn't know that ^^.
       
    15. If you have a Premier account you pay the same amount of fees on CC/debit as balance transfer.

      Some sellers only charge fees on credit card charges because they have more than one PayPal account. If you don't have a premier account, I believe you can still accept a limited number of credit card transactions which do involve higher fees, which might be why some sellers charge for those transactions only.

      I still think it's wrong except in the case of group orders and breaks the ToS with PayPal.
       
    16. It's a funny story really, this. I've always been against it because I don't like paying more than I have to, but now that I'm trying to buy a doll off a friend, and she's charging me paypal fees, I'm starting to think about this.

      I don't mind paying my friend a little extra, and I am kinda trying to ask her if she really needs her Premium account, not being a seller and all. Before I told her the "howto"s, I checked to make sure if i wasnt going to disadvantage her when she changes to a basic (like i did).

      Then I really found out the difference (that i didn't notice before when -I- was downgrading >w> )

      We know the unlimited credit card transaction thing. Sellers might say they get it so their buyers have more paying methods. But we can also say that it'll allow them to get more sales.

      But for the others :

      # Subscriptions and Recurring payments
      # PayPal Debit Card
      # Mass Payment
      # PayPal Shops
      # Customizable Transaction History Logs
      # 7-day-a-week toll-free customer service
      # Multi-user access
      # Ability to do business under a corporate or group name

      The sellers are getting all the other good things that we (if non premium members) don't share. Them telling us to pay the extra that they're charged is like asking us to pay their rent for them. They use a better account, and we pay for it?

      The occasional seller as well. (those who mostly buy. sells only once in a blue moon) We're not paying you that extra that allows you to be under Paypal Seller Protection when YOU buy YOUR stuff.

      I'm paying my friend hers only because she's a friend. Otherwise, I'd really give that person a talking to.
       
    17. From Paypal's Help pages :

      Q : Can I downgrade my account?

      A : If you downgrade your account, you will lose access to all of PayPal's Premium Features, including:

      # The ability to accept unlimited credit or debit card payments
      #Access to our Customer Service hotline, open 7-days-a-week, from 6:00 AM CT to 12:00 AM CT
      #Coverage under PayPal's Seller Protection Policy
      # The ability to create PayPal Shopping Cart buttons
      #Instant access to the funds in your PayPal account with the PayPal Debit Card

      Note: If you are doing business online you are required to have a Premier or Business account. In addition, no fees will be refunded


      It mentions the "coverage" business (which it did NOT before) right there. I added this in cos it wasn't in the list I got for the advantages of Premium over Personal accounts but I had mentioned it.
       
    18. I hate PayPal in a massive way, when it all boils down to it, as a seller you lose, as a buyer you lose, the only winner is paypal..they make millions and millions of pounds out of the online communities and especially Ebay...afterall its one in the same company...thay are free to bully and set dumb rates because there is no competition at the moment and it stinks! On the horizon there are other ways to pay online ahead...i am definately holding out for them and have long since booted paypal..
       
    19. i realised the higher the sum the more it is not 4-6% of total amount, it is hard to calculate how much the fees are because when huge sums are involved, it is more difficult to calculate..an example i was given..

      .for example if paypal fees was hypothetically 50% of amount and we need to sell an item for $100, we think we would charge buyer $150...in order to get back $100..however in reality we get back only $75...

      i think it doesnt make a difference if there is fees or not, people selling can just factor it into PRODUCT sold...

      i've been buying 99.9% of the time and have gotten used to it...