Real Bodies and the ABJD Aesthetic

1. Is the slim, realistically uncommon physique, favored by the vast majority of ABJD molds, more for aesthetics or for functionality? (Added For Clarity: The combination of features, including slenderness, legginess, the large head, narrow shoulders, small hands and feet, etc, which you would not commonly find all together in one human body, purely aesthetics, or at least partly good engineering? Feel free to read my longer post on this further down the page.)

Aesthetics. I think this is mostly due the way we are brought up, from a very young age we are taught that thin is beautiful. As for features, its just like Barbie. Original Barbies are really unrealistic (not saying that the new ones are much better) but this was to allow for clothes to fit her and still look good. I think when we scale things down, its [figure discrepancies] to serve functionality and appearance. If a BJD were human, just like Barbie, they would be bizarre "freaks" with proportions, figures and features we would find unattractive. So I think that the proportions and body types of ABJD are merely to look good and satisfy the largest customer base.

2. Is there room within the ABJD aesthetic for a wider range of body types, including older or less idealized physiques? Or would such dolls belong in another category altogether? If dolls with less idealized physiques do belong in another category, is that purely adherence to the "BJD Aesthetic", or a disturbing rejection of real bodies and the people who inhabit them?

I know that having read through quite a few threads, there would be a group of people interested in having wider ranges of body types.
I can't see this for myself, as awful as it sounds, I don't want my dolls to be representative of what you find typically on a street. Blame it on North American culture but I really find "thin" to be most ideal for the elements of my imagination. In real life there is a lot of variety, which is wonderful. However, for me with my toys, I want nothing less than "perfection" an ideal image no human would ever look like. That's just me and my fairly cruel outlook on figures. I don't reject the proportions found in real humans but I just don't find myself wanting to see flabby arms or beer guts being translated into doll features. In terms of a more voluptuous doll, go ahead, but there are some things where its a little too, weird.

As an aside I'm not sure if the BJD market could support the needs of fuller figured doll owners [esp. if it is a minority group]. As mentioned above, the similarity between sizes in companies allows for clothes/shoes/accessories to be interchanged easily. With new or different sizes, clothing becomes more of an issue (even now for the over 60cm or under 30cm dolls), and with a smaller market for versatile doll figures, it'll be tricky to find company made clothes/companies/seamstresses willing to create things that would fit. Already for the irregular sizes it's hard to find nice stuff, and not everyone has the ability or means [here meaning a model for a commissioned seamstress to base her pattern off of] to make things themselves.

3. Do some people experience feelings of self worth, physical appeal, popularity, etc. vicariously through their dolls? How might this be healthy? How might this be unhealthy?

I guess they do. My dolls wear clothes I think are cute and cool, but know I couldn't pull off on my own figure. I don't live out my desires to be appreciated through my dolls. There are pros an cons to both sides, neither of which I really want to delve into right now (they seem a bit obvious if you just think about it).

4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not? Tangentially, can a doll be too real? Is it the realism, or lack thereof, that draws you to BJDs?

I think dolls are the idealized human form, but when I see a doll, I don't compare her/him to a real person because they are just too different to really have a basis of comparison. How can one judge anything against what can be called "ideal or perfect"? Its not really fair. If a doll were human they'd be considered "less perfect" (see response to #1) and if a human were a doll they'd be the "less perfect" one. I don't really think one can compare the versatile nature of a human to the unchanging figure of a doll.
The only day a doll will be too real is when it has pores and skin. Most head sculpts and bodies are still way too stylized to be real looking.

 

i was actually thinking about this today while looking at my own body (note: in a non creepy way. i was drying my hair XD )

1. Is the slim, realistically uncommon physique, favored by the vast majority of ABJD molds, more for aesthetics or for functionality?

id have to go with aesthetics over function. though, thinking about it, i suppose i slightly 'chubbier' doll would be harder to pose/not function as well. but in all honesty, i can only guess. these dolls are an art form or a canvas. and i have to agree with the practicalities of the outfit thing. that just makes perfect sense

2. Is there room within the ABJD aesthetic for a wider range of body types, including older or less idealized physiques? Or would such dolls belong in another category altogether? If dolls with less idealized physiques do belong in another category, is that purely adherence to the "BJD Aesthetic", or a disturbing rejection of real bodies and the people who inhabit them?

um, well, yes it would be differant. because if were going to go with realism with BJDs, they wouldnt have oversized heads, giant eyes, and the general face-setup most have. for me its not about realism at all. and, in all fairness, it is possible to have a body similar to a BJD. i personally feel its a bit naive to ask the doll makers for so much. these dolls are induvidually created works of art, theyre created with love by the sculpter, at first anyway, and are made to the creators ideas. if you want a specific doll, do what those doll makers do. which is exactly what i intend to do. just because its your dream doll doesnt mean someone wants to sit there and sculpt it. am i making a little sense here? XD (badly worded i know! sorry)

4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not? Tangentially, can a doll be too real? Is it the realism, or lack thereof, that draws you to BJDs?

lack thereof. my dolls arent really 'human' therefore looking human isnt such a big deal. theyre just representations~

other body types from some other company would be cool to see. but the practicality is just so ...low. like combinging parts, outfits, like everyone else has said. but id love to see some rather chunky girls :3 i just dont think itll happen

 

1. Is the slim, realistically uncommon physique, favored by the vast majority of ABJD molds, more for aesthetics or for functionality?
for asthetics of course. while many people don't have a problem with fat people or are themselves fat(i'm a recovering fat person so i can use the 'f' word XD) that doesn't mean they want a doll, which are usually pictured as pretty and unrealistic versions of humans, that looks exactly like them!

2. Is there room within the ABJD aesthetic for a wider range of body types, including older or less idealized physiques? Or would such dolls belong in another category altogether? If dolls with less idealized physiques do belong in another category, is that purely adherence to the "BJD Aesthetic", or a disturbing rejection of real bodies and the people who inhabit them?
i think there is some room but it's business, bjd companies need to make revenue and they're obviously going to make more money off their pretty boys and girls! ha ha. i don't think dolls with less idealized physiques belong in seperate categories-if they're abjd then they are regardless of physique. i also don't think it's a rejection of real bodies-it's just a doll, no need to get upset, they're not human. ^^

3. Do some people experience feelings of self worth, physical appeal, popularity, etc. vicariously through their dolls? How might this be healthy? How might this be unhealthy?
i think that many people who own dolls experience those feelings through their dolls-not everyone is a face to face people person. i don't like crowds in real life but on the net you can be surrounded by people and never feel nervous some people can't wear the clothes they want or speak well or whatever their difficulties may be but through their dolls they can gain confidence and happiness. however, this can become unhealthy if the owner feels this happiness only when they look at their doll but feel repulsed when faced with themselves.


4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not? Tangentially, can a doll be too real? Is it the realism, or lack thereof, that draws you to BJDs?

i think they're more perfect in some ways but less perfect in others. dolls may be perfectly sculpted but they will never be real. you can't get the same feeling from human companionship from a doll because dolls can't talk back and they are obviously too perfect to relate to. a doll can be too real if they are scale! XD those are scary! what draws me to bjd is definately the lack of realism. you can make your doll whatever and 'whomever' you please and they will never talk back to you or anything! ha ha.

 

1. Is the slim, realistically uncommon physique, favored by the vast majority of ABJD molds, more for aesthetics or for functionality? (Added For Clarity: The combination of features, including slenderness, legginess, the large head, narrow shoulders, small hands and feet, etc, which you would not commonly find all together in one human body, purely aesthetics, or at least partly good engineering? Feel free to read my longer post on this further down the page.)
Personally, I feel that the rather uncommon phsyique is more for aesthetics than functionality. Let's face it, almost, if not every, person cares about and wants a great body and good looks. Dolls in general are supposed to be the dream person, aren't they? I guess this is going to sound terrible of me, but I don't really think I'd want a more realistic doll. I see enough muffin tops and jelly rolls just walking in the mall, I wouldn't want my doll to look like that too. (I blame my shallowness on being an artist >_>;; )

2. Is there room within the ABJD aesthetic for a wider range of body types, including older or less idealized physiques? Or would such dolls belong in another category altogether? If dolls with less idealized physiques do belong in another category, is that purely adherence to the "BJD Aesthetic", or a disturbing rejection of real bodies and the people who inhabit them?
I don't really see why different body types would belong in another category, separate from ABJD. er... sorry, I'm not sure if I know enough about BJD yet to anwser this.

3. Do some people experience feelings of self worth, physical appeal, popularity, etc. vicariously through their dolls? How might this be healthy? How might this be unhealthy?
I would assume some people do sort of live through their dolls with looks and clothing styles. I think this can be healthy in the sense that dolls can have hair, skin, and eye colors that we can't have (at least, not naturally) and can sport fashions that would not be acceptable for their owner (at 15, I already feel like I'm too old to wear Lolita clothing, but I'd put it on a doll in a heartbeat). Hmm... This definitley seems unhealthy in some ways, though because it might be keeping people from accomplishing things to make themselves feel better. Er... Well, I mean, it could be keeping people from building confidence and working on goals for themselves.

4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not? Tangentially, can a doll be too real? Is it the realism, or lack thereof, that draws you to BJDs?
"Perfect" is realtive, I think... but as far as the general idea of perfect, I think that dolls probably are more perfect than the living human body. They can look however we would like them to look, they don't gain weight, and they don't get sick or old. Can a doll be too real? Well, I think so... If a doll is very realistic it kind of creeps me out and seems kind of sick in a way. I'm not sure why, though, sorry. Can I answer the last question by saying it's somewhere inbetween? hahaha I'm drawn to BJDs because they do look a lot more realistic than any doll you'd find in the toy section at the store haha, and they can be posed very realistically(sp?). On the other hand, I love that the dolls can be customized to have ears, horns, tails, unnatural-colored eyes, hair, and skin (sorry to be repeating myself), and that they do have "perfect" bodies. Hahaha It's kind of like they have all the good points of realism and surrealism. : D

 

1. Is the slim, realistically uncommon physique, favored by the vast majority of ABJD molds, more for aesthetics or for functionality?

I think is some cases it is for both. In others it seems to be purely aesthetic. Those FlexiBodies look downright gangley to, with their limbs being made thinner in areas to allow for a greater range of movement. Even with clothes on the proportions look awkward to me. I'd say that's function way over aesthetic. Then of course there is my Dollfie Dream who is so leggy, for the sake of having a leggy look, that she tends to fall over on her face a lot. I generally dress her in jeans, or floor length skirts though, so I guess I'm not in to showing off all that leg.
I am a tall generally thin person, so I guess I don't really think of ABJD being unnaturally slim. They just eat better and get more excersise than I have of late... The only thing that really bothers me about their body types is that sometimes the heads don't seem to match the bodies. Like that Pirate Resnier (spelling?) doll. He seemed to have too young of a face for the muscular body that he was made to have. It kind of weirded me out. I'd like it if there were an allowance for more adult looking dolls, not all of them have to be cherubic. Hence the popularity of Dollshes and Unidoll Jace when he was releases. There seem to be a wider range of ages with the female dolls, but while many of them are "delicate" or "sexy" or "perfect" in their bodies, there aren't any really athletic looking female bodies, or any that are a little more than perfectly thin.

2. Is there room within the ABJD aesthetic for a wider range of body types, including older or less idealized physiques? Or would such dolls belong in another category altogether? If dolls with less idealized physiques do belong in another category, is that purely adherence to the "BJD Aesthetic", or a disturbing rejection of real bodies and the people who inhabit them?

I think that part of the reason dolls work at having what we're calling perfect bodies, is that we are using them as a base to work from. Neither of my dolls parade around naked in public, so I'm not to worried about wanting to feed anyone up, so to speak. Considering the numerous layers of clothes, it sort of works out to my advantage. While I don't really want a plumper doll, I would like to have an older brother type of doll, someone who looks older than 25, of while there are few. Even the more athletically inclined dolls have that springy youth look, I'd rather have a fella who looks a little more settled in his musculature. I don't think that would be something people would reject, but I don't know for certain.

3. Do some people experience feelings of self worth, physical appeal, popularity, etc. vicariously through their dolls? How might this be healthy? How might this be unhealthy?
To me my dolls are a creative outlet, mostly for my sewing. I don't have the time or the money to make clothes for myself right now. When I do, I like to make period clothing, but as I have been also been making a lot of modern clothing for my dolls as well, I realize that I would like to make more for myself. Nathan is a little kid, so I kind of like to dress him a bit like an 80s elementary school kid, with a little modern flare when it comes to colors. He also doesn't have to get embarassed because his sweater's a bizarre pattern. In some sense he and Aislinn can wear clothes that I can't wear right now. If I'm missing the Renaissance Festival but can't wear Fair Garb on a particular day, I'll dress Aislinn up in something similar instead. But that's the extend of it. I think if people start blaming things on their dolls, or claim to be incapable of doing something because of a doll, then it's time for someone to intervene, but as far as using them to explore fashions a person doesn't have the age or body type for, that's just something fun, and quite harmless.


4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not? Tangentially, can a doll be too real? Is it the realism, or lack thereof, that draws you to BJDs?'

ABJDs are very posable, but they will never be as unique or as articulate as the actual human body. In both ways I find them imperfect as far as imitating the human body.
I look for beauty in the great variations of people. In men (and women I suppose, too. However, I'm into guys to I think of their aesthetic first), I look for health, capability, and clarity of mind when I'm judging whether or not I find someone attractive. There isn't really a single type I look for. In fact the typical "model" type of guy I tend to find to be really boring in appearance.
I'm brought back to the idea that ABJD are a base on which we are expected to expand. Thinking about the vast number of types of mods people do on their dolls, I think it's safe to say that not all people are totally obsessed with perfection. Anyone who knocks a dolls eye out, or adds a third one is clearly thinking about something other than the grand Greek ideal.

 

1. Is the slim, realistically uncommon physique, favored by the vast majority of ABJD molds, more for aesthetics or for functionality?
Honestly, I think it's following nature, but idealizing it like any art form does. Asians tend to be quite petite, or lean towards being slender, so to me they're exaggerations of average Asian body types. Just look at dolls/action figures (or comics) here in the West, and you'll see an exaggeration of Western body types.
Of course, it could be a cost-based decision. Making a doll with my physique (hourglass figure! ^_^) would probably use a good bit more resin than your typical BJD. I hear just the resin can be quite expensive, and casting larger pieces or pieces with more complex curves (thus decreasing the success rate) could significantly jack up the price.
So it's probably a mix of both, I think.

2. Is there room within the ABJD aesthetic for a wider range of body types, including older or less idealized physiques?
Absolutely! ^_^ I would welcome it - Probably make a wizard or a king out of the older ones, or even a whole family!

Or would such dolls belong in another category altogether? If dolls with less idealized physiques do belong in another category, is that purely adherence to the "BJD Aesthetic", or a disturbing rejection of real bodies and the people who inhabit them?
I don't think so - The current ages seems to run from small child to early twenties, so it makes sense to continue to widen the age gap. I think they would still be in the category of BJDs so long as they had ball joints. If they weren't for some odd reason, they would probably be grouped by age and type, and the current crop of "normal" BJDs would probably be re-categorized to avoid confusion. A lot of pidgeon-holeing, but it would be to help keep things organized, not due to a rejection of real human body types.

3. Do some people experience feelings of self worth, physical appeal, popularity, etc. vicariously through their dolls? How might this be healthy? How might this be unhealthy?
I'm sure this happens with some people out there, and it's not necessarily a terrible thing. There are awesome fantasy clothes that I've seen and beautiful harem jewelry that might get you arrested if you wore them out in public! Or they're just plain impractical for wearing around the house (from personal experience: bell sleeves and cooking do not mix). It's rare occassions arise when one can wear some the wonderful outfits we see on here, so to have them on your doll so you can enjoy them without having to put up with actually wearing them - Not a bad thing. You can also use your doll to show off your creative skill - It's cheaper if you're a seamstress to buy a few feet of fabric than it is to buy a few yards, and likewise with my chainmaile.
Of course, it can be unhealthy if you allow it to negatively affect your own body image or self-esteem. Granted, some people use their dolls to make mock-ups of clothes they plan for themselves, but I'm sure none of them are too surprised if it doesn't look the same on them as it does on their doll. I know I'll never look like a girl SD, but on the other hand, I know no girl SD will ever have a body like mine!

4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not? Tangentially, can a doll be too real? Is it the realism, or lack thereof, that draws you to BJDs?
Apples and Oranges, really, but I would say the dolls are less perfect. I have a rather "mechanical" view of the human body. To me the body is a wonderful machine that works beautifully when you take care of it and comes in an infinite variety of styles, colors, and functions. Were a BJD to come to life, many wouldn't be able to support their own heads because their necks are too thin! 0_o But, as BJDs, they work perfectly - They're beautiful, they pose, they show off our artistic creations, and they're just plain fun. I don't think they can be "too real" because real people are so unique. That, and there's the whole walking/talking/doing stuff that people can do. If a doll can do that it ceases to be a doll - It's an andriod!
I got into BJDs because I saw the creative potential they have. I can't wait for my ring order of tiny rings to come in the mail, because I want to make chainmaile for Roland. ^_^

 

Personally, I favor the curvier, slim physique. I believe the proportions serve a really lovely, aesthetic look and certain style. I love dolls that look intensely real and that, at first glance in photos, seem to be alive, but realism to the point where all the features which I find unattractive in myself especially were shown, well, I'd be uncomfortable with that.
For a while, my doll went through an intensely punky phase with a slew of piercings and studs as well as buckles and and large boots. I would never dress like that, I would never see myself in that type of clothing, and generally dislike that type of clothing in general, but in dolls, they're almost in an altogether alternative reality, where things in real life that are viewed as unappealing have a certain charm.
I don't think that there really is a true perfection, to be completely honest. It really is simply about what pleases a certain individual.

 

I would definitely love fuller- looking bodies. I think it looks healthier and more womanly, and will fit some characters better. I actually don't think that most BJD bodies are pretty. I can even go further by saying that to me, they are less "perfect" and beautiful than real human bodies- most female BJD bodies have disproportionately large breasts and almost no thighs- quite unfeminine imho. I'm still waiting for a feminine, mature BJD body with larger, curvier hips and breasts that don't stand as if they were made of silicone. Just a bit more... Natural. I'm not talking breasts sinking down to the doll's navel, but I would definitely like it better if their breasts weren't so fake, Brabie- looking.
I'd love it if they made a body like Dollstown's Elf body, except with slightly larger breasts [but really- just a tad!]. I think that currently, it's my favorite female body for BJDs- it's just more realistically proportionate in my eyes.

As to male BJDs, most of their bodies seem either too skinny and boyish, or overly buff and muscular. I'd really love a body that's somewhere in the middle- not overly muscular or bulky, but also not too childish.

I do find it kind of unnerving to know that if I had the same clothes as my girl BJDs, they'd never look as good on me as they do on the dolls . It's a bit saddening to me that even in the fantastical world of BJDs, there's still no escaping from the rigid, crazy standards of beauty our world has today. It's kind of frustrating to turn off the T.V or throw away your beauty magazines, just to encounter the same frustration and feeling of self imperfection when handling your beloved dolls.

 

I like curvy hips too The problem with breast shape is that unlike real women's breasts that can be moved around and supported with undergarments, resin breasts can only stay in one shape in one place. This can be an issue with clothing. More naturally shaped breasts look better when the doll is naked, but the perkier I-look-like-I'm-wearing-a-bra-even-though-I'm-not look that many of the larger busted girls sport look better in clothing.

 

BJD bodies remind me a lot of fashion sketches, which are made to be intentionally disproportionate (as in legs longer than normal, etc). I think that has a lot to do with the aesthetics of the dolls, and why they may be appealing to some. I personally like the little touches that make them seem more human, such as my Dollmore girl's stomach, which has a nice natural bump, instead of completely flat.

I think that there are more and more different bodies being released all the time. The differences may only be subtle, but I think its evidence enough that there is room for a wider range of body types.

As for living vicariously through one's doll, I know that I make my dolls clothes that I know wouldn't suit me. I guess its a way of enjoying these clothing styles, that I wouldn't have been able to otherwise. I don't think that's unhealty. What is unhealthy is seeing flaws in your body in comparison to your doll's.

 

I think the comments about clothing in this thread are pointing up an important distinction between people who enjoy buying a lot of different or new outfits for their dolls - I won't call them "fashion-doll bjd people" because that seems to carry some connotations that may not apply to everybody who enjoys buying clothes for their doll - and people who might be more interested in the doll sculpt itself and perhaps buy or even custom-make it just a couple of outfits, or simply put a drape or a robe on it and enjoy it.
Certainly, if you can sew well, you worry a lot less about whether some outfit will be available for the size and shape of doll you buy, but not everybody can or wants to make their own clothes.

It's all in what your priorities are with the dolls. I'm more into the sculpts and having options to make differently sized/shaped dolls than I am into buying a lot of clothes.

 

1. I'm assuming this is both, really. I think having some smaller features, like the hands and feet, can help with getting clothes on and such (I know with other types of dolls, its hard to put clothing on them sometimes because the arm holes aren't big enough and the thimbs get stuck. XD But I do believe aesthetics has a big role in how our dolls look.

2. I think, with ABJD referring to Asian ball-jointed dolls, that there isn't really much of a range of body types. This is a common stereo type, and I'm not saying that all Asians are thin, but I would say a majority of them are, and that's why the dolls have the body type they do. Being larger is generally frowned upon wherever you go, and so I think that most people, if they saw a doll with a larger body would have a reaction along the lines of "Who would want that?" (I'm not small myself, but I know I personally wouldn't want a larger doll, as its not what I like.) I know there are a lot of people who probably would buy a doll with a larger body, but I'm not sure how well it would sell.

The same thing for "older" body types and faces - they would be different for sure, but I'm not sure how well they would sell.

I'm not against this at all, I would love to see larger/older dolls, and I know people would buy them. I'm just saying I'm not one of those people, but it would be great to see a variety of dolls. : D

3. I don't know how most people think, but I would say there are probably some people that "live through their dolls", meaning they dress them as they would themselves if they had that body type/were more outgoing etc. I'm far too shy to wear anything I put on my dolls, but I don't mind, since I still make myself look decent. XD I think it would be unhealthy if someone were to mae an outfit for their doll, and expect it to look the same on themselves, even if they have a completely different body type. I think it would be perfectly healthy for someone to create something for their doll, and make the same thing for themself that would look fine on their body type.

I think part of it is that people need to realize that, really, no one is proportioned exactly like their dolls. No one really looks like any of our dolls, so you can't hold yourself up to those "standards".

4. I think dolls are an "idolized" version of the human body. Basically, they're what you'd have if you took all the flaws out of a living person, and added anything good you can get to make it "perfect". Many people live not wanting to be "imperfect", so they take steps to correct whatever they think is wrong with themselves. So many people nowadays are having plastic surgery, or fixing small things that don't need fixing, and I think the companies take into consideration what these people want to look like, and then base the way the doll looks off of a "perfect" human.

In no way do I think anyone is perfect, but the media drills into our head that you should look a certain way, and so we think that we have to look like that. The companies may very well think their dolls need to look like that.

 

Probably most companies DO need to make their dolls shaped thin, if they wanna sell any.... I'd imagine if you were a tiny little studio, & just making dolls for fun, you could make em whatever shape you wanted. Like that Aoi Tuki girl, with the massive saddlebags, rolling-thunder thighs, and dainty little bosom? Kapow! She is so far out. She can't even wear SD13-Boy-sized pants, there's so much junk in that trunk. But she's so real: you put her next to an SD16 Olivia, and it's Olivia who looks like the freak (a starveling freak who's missing a rib ^^). I think it's just very cool that a doll like that exists.

Haven't yet seen Miss Aoi Tuki Thunderbum's *male* equivalent yet, though. I don't know any studios who've made a male doll with love handles or a beerbelly. Boy, I'd love to be proven wrong, on general principle. Just wanna see ONE. I imagine most guys similarly wish they were shaped more like the sleek Elfdoll or Iple or Lati boys with the killer abs, or, if they watch a lot of Dolph Lundgren movies, the SD16.

Probably the skinny-body doll thing is sometimes based on engineering (hypermobile brands like Domuya or Shinydoll = hyperscrawny for better movement)... but I bet mostly on the fashion-plate ideal. Clothes are best shown off on angular hangers, which is why models are shaped like them; mannequins & dolls are just portable versions of models who don't need to be bribed with cocaine.

 

1. Is the slim, realistically uncommon physique, favored by the vast majority of ABJD molds, more for aesthetics or for functionality? (Added For Clarity: The combination of features, including slenderness, legginess, the large head, narrow shoulders, small hands and feet, etc, which you would not commonly find all together in one human body, purely aesthetics, or at least partly good engineering?
I find that this form is uncommon but not unrealistic, and it is the most functional for dolls simply because they are made of hard resin. If the dolls were made larger it would look awkward because all the areas near joints would have to taper down, be slimmer or more flat to allow for full movement.

2. Is there room within the ABJD aesthetic for a wider range of body types, including older or less idealized physiques? Or would such dolls belong in another category altogether? If dolls with less idealized physiques do belong in another category, is that purely adherence to the "BJD Aesthetic", or a disturbing rejection of real bodies and the people who inhabit them?

There is room for all types of forms and they would still be BJD's to me, but I think even if they were available they would still be less popular than the body's already available. i.e.: people say that they would like it but would they really buy it, or just look and be happy with that?

3. Do some people experience feelings of self worth, physical appeal, popularity, etc. vicariously through their dolls? How might this be healthy? How might this be unhealthy?
Yes, some people do, and openly admit it. It could be healthy if it give them the confidence to achieve a similar (Healthy) life style, it would be unhealthy if one looked at their doll and thought "my doll looks good and gets lots of complements, thats all I need to be happy with myself." very unhealthy mindset.

Example: A person who creates beautiful dresses and sexy lingerie for their dolls, but considers their own body too imperfect to warrant the same adornment.
This is not me, but if someone feels this way it time for change. Seize the day! Love yourself...etc,etc. why let your own doll show you up?

4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not? Tangentially, can a doll be too real? Is it the realism, or lack thereof, that draws you to BJDs?
Dolls are less perfect than us because they are what we make them and no more. They are inanimate so they can never be real enough, thats what makes them so much fun. Life sized, life like dolls are not any fun, thats why so few of them exist.
Not to offend but these questions are pretty biased towards larger people, tall slim, long limed people are not unrealistic and uncommon. It is simply that society and marketing have separated us. We shop, eat and participate in different activities. It's not the form but the life style that has kept us apart, which is why I love these dolls They are common ground for so many different types of people.

 

I don't think too many of the 7-foot, 90-pound people reading this thread will be all that offended.

Sure they are uncommon! The whole reason that everybody doesn't look like dolls or mannequins or supermodels-- and the reason that some models are paid so highly-- is that the vast majority of people don't have freakishly long limbs and giant heads. If most humans looked like that, and if people with large hips and breasts were the minority, then THEY would be coveted and highly paid to be models. Or imitated as doll-body types. Camryn Mannheim would be the top Barbie. Women in Beverly Hills would pay to have fat injected into their thighs. (The breast-augmentation scene, uhh, probably wouldn't change at all. ^^)

As for unrealistic: oh wow are dolls shaped unrealistically. Even the tallest, skinniest, longest-limbed, biggest-headed person you can find will not even come CLOSE to a doll's proportions. When we look at these things for so much time every day, their shape may start to look normal to us. But dear gawd, is it not.

Whether/when it's unhealthy: Depends on the person, how at-peace they are with their own body, and how much importance they place on body shape. There's plenty people who aren't particularly happy with their shape, but don't find it important enough to obsess over.

A good question! Take a poll! Many folks would like to see 'real body dolls' on general principle, just to SEE it, rather than owning one. But I've heard others say that they'd buy one, if it existed. And I actually know one person IRL who has one of those Aoi Tuki thunderbutt girls, and she thinks that doll is the bomb.

Realistically:sure thing, they'd be WAY less popular than the regular slim dolls. But only "less". There would be some people who'd buy them, but probably not enough for any companies to bother making them. (Maybe an LE10 run or something.)

 

Hmm. I guess I don't look at a doll body and think "unrealistic!" "fascist beauty standards!" "feminist rage!", to be honest I think BJDs are a lot better than a lot of fashion dolls, which have really absurd figures and don't even have the posability that a BJD has. And yes, the slimness of dolls does have to do with function- unlike flesh, resin is not soft and won't move out of the way if you want to move another part of body where it currently is. Basically, to give a limb or part of a limb a good range of motion, you have to cut away some of the resin from the areas it might need to move into. This is why some dolls have chunks taken out of their knee or elbow areas so that a smaller angle bend can be acheived, or some dolls have hollowed out areas near the armpit for arm range of motion. The bodies made specifically for high posing ability are very slim for a reason- because you have to cut less "flesh" out of a skinny doll.

And I'll agree with what Taco said about the perky breasts, and I've seen people say this before about mannequins and other dolls and whatnot... they may look unnaturally perky when the doll is nude, but since resin flesh cannot move like a real woman's breasts, the dolls have to always look like they are wearing a bra or they will look oddly saggy when they are wearing clothes (and I'd say most doll people have their dolls wearing SOME clothing more often than not- even if it's only lingerie, even if they aren't fashion people, etc). And, to be honest, as a generally slim woman with large (natural) breasts, it always frustrates me a bit when people talk about how unrealistic that kind of figure is- it does happen naturally, skinny people can have a large bosom without surgery or padded bras. It may not be common but it's far from unnatural. ; )

As for there being a market for different body types and sizes, I also agree with those who have pointed out that the more bodies stray from the "standard" sizes, the harder it is to clothe them. I've only been around this forum a few months and even I've noticed all the "where can I find pants for an X boy?" "what shoes fit X size dolls?" "My X is too big/small for most of the clothes made for his/her size range!" etc etc. Of course custom made clothes are great, but it gets a bit silly, I think, having a doll that doesn't fit into the "standard" clothing sizes and which only fits a few things or you have to make your own (unless making your own clothing was part of the appeal of a BJD to you). Brands that sell dolls that won't fit into standard clothing sizes will probably also find that they don't sell as many dolls because people are hesitant to buy a doll that will be so hard to dress (not everyone, but some people certainly would be).

In general, I tend not to think that dolls contribute to the self-image problems that people might have- I feel it's a lot more internal than that and while Barbies may have an impact on children if they play with a Barbie at a very young age, by the time people are getting into BJDs they are probably old enough that the doll won't change their perceptions of beauty or their perceptions of their own bodies. It's the same thing I and others have said in the culture of debt and Gentaro Araki debate threads- dolls may seem like the kind of thing that encourages someone to get into debt, to stay at home and play with them or sculpt them, or to see their thin bodies as perfection... but in reality it's usually an underlying personality trait that may show itself with the dolls but wasn't caused by the dolls.

I'll say honestly that I haven't read through all of the posts to this thread, I've skimmed a bit because a lot of people seemed to be saying similar things... so apologies if I'm repeating a lot fo what has been said before. ^^;

 

4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not? Tangentially, can a doll be too real? Is it the realism, or lack thereof, that draws you to BJDs?

A doll would be more or less perfect than a living human according to the person judging its ideals. I think they have beautiful doll bodies but not human bodies. Like the way a human and a doll are seem like seperate species to me.

I think its the both, Dolls are some where in between real and not. Their bodies and heads although not completely realistic appear more human and real than say a barbie. I like the fact that they don't look too real. But I can't exactly say why that is .

 

I have always been a tall, skinny girl, and when the time hit I became a tall, skinny, big breasted, large hipped woman and I do take offense to people calling me abnormal (especially over something so shallow as psychical appearance).I don't compare (myself or) female BJD to super models because they do look like women and not angry, hungry, little boys.
(I do eat and digest, I weigh 160 pounds and I'm 5'9", I'm very happy with myself and anything I make for my doll I would also make and wear for myself.)

Women with large hips and breasts are paid to be models, it's the ones with large everything else that don't make it in popular fashion magazines.
Also large people being the ideal image/form of beauty has only happened once in history, and it was all due to the hierarchy setting the "beauty standard".
The idea was that they never worked a day in their lives, they could sit around, eat all they want and never lift a finger because they were obscenely rich (this also made them very pale because they didn't go outside, but I would never argue that tanning is a good thing.). unless we've stepped into the twilight zone I'm pretty sure it'll never happen again because we now know the health risks of being overweight (and tanning our skin).
The whole "giant head" thing is just something that goes along with dolls, even porcelain dolls have over sized heads, but not all BJD have this, I find Nare have good head body proportion and they are just as popular as the dolls which do have giant heads.

This is pretty true for most dolls, I think Limhwa and Nare are the closest BJD to a natural form and their hips are still a little too long. This is not to say that being tall, skinny, long limbed and shapely is impossible, I know and have seen plenty of people who are all of these things on a daily basis.

This is also true, if your happy with yourself no matter what thats awesome, more power to you.
But if you are one of those people who engage in unhealthy behavior (i.e. over eating, smoking, drinking, no real exercise.), and then complain about your result, hiding behind your doll is not going to fix your problem it'll make it worse. No matter how beautiful your doll is, or how many compliments it gets you, when you look in the mirror you'll still face yourself. If your unhappy with that change it, stop complaining about it, stop trying to make your doll better and do something good for yourself. Don't let your doll show you up, it was made that way, it's incappable of change but you are not.

 

A series of question regarding form, function, and body image. Taken almost directly from my post in the Debate Topic Suggestions thread.

1. Is the slim, realistically uncommon physique, favored by the vast majority of ABJD molds, more for aesthetics or for functionality? (Added For Clarity: The combination of features, including slenderness, legginess, the large head, narrow shoulders, small hands and feet, etc, which you would not commonly find all together in one human body, purely aesthetics, or at least partly good engineering? Feel free to read my longer post on this further down the page.)
Both. Functionally, especially for me with MSD sized dolls, slim dolls (like Narae, Supia etc) get into more natural poses than the chunkier MSD's I've had. You have to consider these bodies are stiff, not pliable like real bodies so it's more difficult to pose them in a natural position anyway. Make them stalky or more natural and you make it more difficult. Besides slender bodies are naturally occuring in real life. Some cultures more so than others it seems. Aesthethically, the more natural I can pose them, the more pleasing it is to me.

2. Is there room within the ABJD aesthetic for a wider range of body types, including older or less idealized physiques? Or would such dolls belong in another category altogether? If dolls with less idealized physiques do belong in another category, is that purely adherence to the "BJD Aesthetic", or a disturbing rejection of real bodies and the people who inhabit them?
Room for them? Yes. Would many people buy them? Probably not. It has less to do with a "BJD Aesthetic" and more to do with preferences aesthetically in general.

3. Do some people experience feelings of self worth, physical appeal, popularity, etc. vicariously through their dolls? How might this be healthy? How might this be unhealthy?
Physical appeal? No. Popularity or living vicariously through them? Not any more than other fans. I think people might get overly obsessed with their dolls and collecting them, take a certain pride in them, but it's no different than a "Sports Nut" or any other fan or interest. It's only unhealthy in the same way it's unhealthy in other interests - if you spend too much, take too much time or attention away from family etc. This hobby is no different than any other in this regard.Example: A person who creates beautiful dresses and sexy lingerie for their dolls, but considers their own body too imperfect to warrant the same adornment.
I don't think that is their motivation or thought process anymore than people that make gay or feminine male dolls, have a closeted desire to be a young gay man, no more than people playing online games wish they were an Orc.

4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not? Tangentially, can a doll be too real? Is it the realism, or lack thereof, that draws you to BJDs?
They are dolls, they are perfect and imperfect. They are something fun you enjoy looking at, maybe creating a look and persona, photographing, being a writing muse etc. It's play. It's not really that "deep".(I encourage gender-specific tangents, as well, if the Mods have no problems with that?)[/QUOTE]

 

You don't have to bring the "F" word into this debate if you don't want! We're also talking about how MALE dollbodies might relate to real life, too. Just bodies in general.

Q (for anyone): Do you think it's indicative of anything that there are more BJDs recently that are getting closer to the 'absurd' Barbie/fashiondoll shape? (More than in past years, I mean.) I.e. Elfdoll girls, SD16 girls, Iplehouse girls.

Of course they're not impossible... I see one in the mirror every morning! And, rather like a Yukinojo, I also bitch about how hard it is to find mass-marketed clothes that fit me just right. ^^
But even the willowiest of us still falls waaay short of being shaped like a doll or mannequin, for the simple fact that they're idealized human forms. We're not idealized, we're just humans. This is enough for some people, but not enough for others. Some people are compelled to throw up after each meal until their shoulders approach the width of their heads. I really hope that there's not too many folks up in here who try to achieve that level of parity with their dolls. It'd make me sad, because there's so many smart people, who know better but still do it anyway.



I saw this in some nifty A.I. study on PBS, about how humans respond to the shapes/expressions of artificial faces: Large heads + huge eyes + tiny bodies induce a sense of youth, and they inspire feelings of sympathy or protectiveness in the viewer. This really goes a long way to explaining the whole Chibi shape too. Or Blythes & Pullips. Or Tweety Bird. When you get to Nancy Reagan and the Olsen Twins, though-- when you put this algorithm on a real human, instead of a doll where your eye doesn't expect realism-- it looks fargnaxing CREEPY.

This is also probably the thing that you was trying to put your finger on, PepperLooney...

You're not nuts! That same NOVA show went on to say that people respond positively to faces that are on the far ends of the "reality spectrum" = either Very Realistic, or Not At All Realistic. If a face was somewhere in the middle, real-but-not-real, people had uncomfortable responses. Which is why so many non-doll-people get so creeped out by our realistic-yet-not-realistic BJDs. (No kidding! I have got to go look up that study, now... I wanna say it was at MIT's robotics lab. But I'd have to check.)


Also, maybe the heads tend to be so big in dolldom (all kinds of dolls, btw) because the head is the spotlight! Seems to me, anyway, that the face would be the most important place to draw the eye to. Makes the features easy to see. When I see the modern doll sculpts with the smaller heads, it's initially jarring on the eye, because it's so much less "dollylike". Lati Reds, or Supia, or the Limhwa guys, their head/neck size and ratio is a bit closer to human. As opposed to, say, CP or Volks. (When I put my Iplehouse Lion next to my SD13 Tony, yoicks! Odd couple! ^^) But I think that human effect is very fetching, in the end! There is definitely room in this hobby for more-realistic & more-fantastical doll shapes.

Not everybody is so easily fixed.... I have a friend who works out 3 hours a day, eats nothing but egg whites for breakfast, and is happy to keep her weight at 195. She doesn't complain about it or even talk about it every day, so there's no clear evidence of obsession. But even so, she likes visiting my doll collection better than others', because I only have boys. No competition, right?

Both very true! Sorry, I should've specified "runway" or "magazine" or "super" models, or whatever you call them that are teh twiggy-- there are plenty of average-sized and plus-sized (don't you just love that term? ;; ) models out there too. Yeah, too, they're not the ones making the Big Bucks.

And history, sadly, has no effect on the current standards of beauty, because the world is so different today. Once it was a class-status-symbol to be fat, because it meant you could afford to eat. Now it's a class-status-symbol to be thin, because it means you can afford to buy real veggies & meat instead of macaroni & cheese, a gym membership after work, and a little lipo for that class reunion. If we lived Way Back When, the SD16 Olivia would probably have a seductively double chin, dimpled fingers, and legs like a YoSD. Yukinojo would have a long beard & a belly like Henry VIII. Oh wow, that'd be creepy on a 65cm scale...