Real Bodies and the ABJD Aesthetic

I've never thought that they look starved. Both my DM girl and my Bobobie girl look perfectly healthy! Unless you are talking about the "older" dolls, as in the 60cm and above catagory. It really all depends on what company you are looking at. Take DM's model dolls for instance. I think they are skinny, but beautifully so, and I don't think they look starved at all.

 

I have a DZ Shoyo, and while she has an hourglass figure, I wouldn't say she's emaciated. She's got realistic thighs for one thing, which I found odd at first. (I know, I know!! Been surrounded by Barbies D: )

I suppose most female body sculpts are made according to what sculptors think the market wants and to be aesthetically pleasing.

 

They are on the uh, lean and trim side, but I don't think they look emaciated--actually, most bjd girls are more realistically proportioned than a lot of fashion dolls. BJD sculptors are, I'm pretty sure, trying to make aesthetically pleasing more idealized bodies, but that doesn't mean they're famine victims. I do have two obitsu 60cm bodies, and they are really skinny. However, the rest of the sculpt is so stylized that it doesn't look odd to me. I don't expect everything to be true to life.

 

I actually kind of get what you mean. I really, really, really want the HYE doll from Souldoll because I ADORE her sculpt... but her body throws me off. Its way too small for her head, for one thing. That was the first thing I noticed watching pictures of her body. She's really thin (her ribcage looks like it might cave in) and looks somewhat out of proportions. Having studied and drawn actual women in artclass, it's easy to see that she is not 'correct' as a young woman should be if healthy.

I'd love to have a curvy woman body with a proper waist and a rounded belly.

 

My Volks SD13 girl as a tummy pooch and butt dimples. Rarely do you find these on starving people. In fact, most of the volks dolls can be described as "chubby," not because they are depicted as such, but because of their more realistic fat deposits than we're all used to seeing on dolls. While I don't have any others, I have noticed that most of the other companies have followed suit. CP girls have a bit of a belly!

Something else to take note off: there was a discussion a while back about making a more average sized doll and the problem came up of how to scupt the extra weight appropriately as humans are squishy and dolls are not, and that this would cause issues with dressing and posing. I find that most companies have done well with the compromise of realistic and dressable/posable.

 

Here's a link to a thread in the debate forum about bjd bodies vs real people bodies. It might be of interest to people: http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156091

 

Having owned a couple of CP girls in my time, I have to say I think they are actually quite lovely in their proportions and curves... and have the biggest backsides I have ever seen! XD

 

have to say i dont agree. flexibodies look odd to me but most others just seem 'toned' or on the thinner side. people say its 'unrealistic' but yeh...thin people DO exist who arent starving themselves, like me

 

But since you're naturally thin, your body is constructed that way and thus you will be in proportions ^^

There's a vast difference between a body starved out of its natural proportions and a naturally thin or slim body. It's easy to see the difference too. Some bodies I agree, just look thin, but other bodies seem to have the effect that it doesn't fit its head or looks malformed in some way or another.

 

I've actually been quite impressed with the girl bodies I've seen/owned in that respect. All the girls I own (With the exception of my Dolfie Dream, but she's MEANT to look like a cartoon character) have nicely proportioned, curvy bodies with sensible sized busts, big hips and thighs, and some of the one-piece bodies have very reasonable little tummies.

They are disproportionately tall for their proportions, but I don't think it makes them look starved so much as elegant.

 

Unoa girls definitely have some meat on their bones, and I don't mean the breasts. Their waists are slim but their thighs and behind are far from starved! Some BJD companies have a rather odd combination of a skinnier-than-slim mini body with muscle-less limbs and 7-8 head. There's a point where it becomes unattractive to me, and definitely not a way I would want to look.

Carolyn

 

Well, i think that BJD's are supposed to be beautiful, so nice physic is sort of nessecary. I find that my CP SOONY has very beautiful body that isnt unreachable because i have that sort of body - the huge boobs XD. But I am drawn to them because of their beauty and artfulness. (probably not a word) and i think it all depends on what nthe sculpter wants the body to be like.

 

This is one of the big things that would actually encourage me to get a girl doll. I love how (especially compared to some figurines made and the western Barbie) most girl bodies are either reasonably childlike or have a sensible bust and hips. They fit a certain, very ethereal artist's trope and I don't think they're somehow too thin. It *is* engineering. Boy bodies are built along the same lines, very streamlined and in some ways unreal, because they use the same joints system and who wants to lug around a 40 pound brick of resin just because it looks exactly the same as a real life man? There is definitely an artistic vision at work. It's not 'feminising' the male body any more than giving a girl body a sensible sized bust (not too big, not too small, in other words, just right, like Goldilocks ^_^) is making it more masculine. The way people treat their dolls because of that- for example giving a slim male doll a back story of an eating disorder- can get out of hand, and *that* is what I have a problem with. If you've ever read one of the old school Mary Sue fanfics out there where they describe the character's build as 'so skinny, she looked anorexic' and they mean it favorably it's rather alarming. It's fairly clear the author means it as flattery but... really.

If I found a curvy body mold for a girl, I'd find a way to use it. If I found a stocky male body mold, it wouldn't put me off in the least. Some of these molds have bodies that are unachievable to some, but that's the way *all* things are. There is no realistic standard of beauty that can be achieved by everyone. No matter how much weight I starve off myself, I WILL have firm shoulders, an oval/squareish face and a comparatively big butt. It doesn't matter if I weigh a hundred pounds and I'm six foot nothing, I will still have that basic bone structure. True, diversity in dolls would be a nice thing, but the worst thing in my opinion would just be slapping some extra material on the belly area and saying 'Here's your realistic doll! It looks nothing like a real person but it's got a pot belly, so that makes it realistic!' and there's no even distribution of resin flesh that makes it look in proportion. The trend in beauty hasn't always been to one extreme or another. It's a matter of personal taste, this modern trend towards extremely thin or 'athletic' builds is actually quite unusual considering all we've been through as a species. It's a youth factor, I suppose. It also makes the doll seem a bit more vulnerable... which is quite revealing if you try to think about it. If there was a big, craggy, masculine 80cm guy doll, there would be a smaller target audience, because there are comparatively few characters in the doll world like that. A long while back I was talking about a character doll of Major Raikov from MGS3 with another person on here and we both had the question... but what body sculpt would Colonel Volgin be? He's like, 6 foot 7, tough and... explosive. The truth is, unless you were to get a little less accurate to the character, there isn't one. I find the fleshtone 'standard' male doll body at Obitsu to be a bit disturbing because he looks like a Ken. There are a couple of Ken type bodies, but little else.

 

Oh boy. First off there is a wonderful PBS mini serise about art and an epsidoe called More Human Than Human that looks in to why we accept distortions of the human body. http://www.pbs.org/howartmadetheworld/episodes/human/ In ancient Greece statues were made very realistic and people didn't like them. Big eyes, long legs, it is within our nature to exagerate the features we find beautiful. With genetic variation one out of so many people will almost look like a walking doll.

I would personally love some more variety with doll bodies. A thicker guy body on one of my minis would make him look more like the guy he's based on, it would be nice if my girl had a fuller figure and could be a mini me. Even little things like fingers and toes could be different, especially long toes.

Having simular sized dolls is great too. I'm at opposite ends of the SD and Mini spectrums with an itty bitty tiny thrown in. My gal wears the cute things that wouldn't flatter my body type and it's fun to let her.

 

I like BJD the way they are. I think that if there were more sizes it would be too hard to find clothes for them and it would be a nightmare for the doll companies. I know I already have a hard enough time finding 70cm clothes that I like. As the old saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

 

What a wonderful discussion.

I was trolling Dollstown, waiting for the new releases and once again stumbled over this picture:

http://dollstown.com/zboard/view.ph...&sc=on&&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=90

I find the body on the left the most reallistic doll body I've ever seen. I'm also somehow disturbed by it, and favor the skinner bodies by far ( I LOVE Dollstown bodies, please don't get me wrong. I'm just exploring my reaction to the body on the far left).

I think the problem (for me) is that it looks a little TOO reallistic and TOO young for the head that is associated with it. If it were a more reallistic face (like Elysia) it might look more correct to me. However, I'd still have the problem of feeling like there's something wrong with playing with a reallistic too-young-looking body. The blushing goes along with that. It looks almost like a photograph of a young, barely adolescent girl. Maybe it's just my cultural bias but I feel distinctly uncomfortable looking at it.

I am not overly fond of Volks bodies for a similar reason... the SDs especially seem too 'young' for the faces.

So, I am in favor of the 'too skinny' body because to me it looks more 'adult' and more in keeping with the doll faces. It's also more abstract, which goes along with the stylized heads quite nicely.

YMMV!!

 

1. Is the slim, realistically uncommon physique, favored by the vast majority of ABJD molds, more for aesthetics or for functionality? (Added For Clarity: The combination of features, including slenderness, legginess, the large head, narrow shoulders, small hands and feet, etc, which you would not commonly find all together in one human body, purely aesthetics, or at least partly good engineering? Feel free to read my longer post on this further down the page.)

I think it's a combination of both, perceived attractiveness and great mobility/posability/ability to stand. *shrugs* It simply is, I don't really wonder why it is.

2. Is there room within the ABJD aesthetic for a wider range of body types, including older or less idealized physiques? Or would such dolls belong in another category altogether? If dolls with less idealized physiques do belong in another category, is that purely adherence to the "BJD Aesthetic", or a disturbing rejection of real bodies and the people who inhabit them?

I wish that there were more dolls available that looked to be in the 25-30 year old age range, especially the guys. IMHO, many female BJDs seem to have a very busty, curvy body and the face of a 13-year-old, and the guys all have six-packs and very young, feminine faces. I don't find it disturbing, but I don't find it as aesthetically pleasing as a good body/head age match.

Ideally, I would love to see a range of doll bodies, from slender to plump, BUT... I already grouse about all the non-standardized doll measurements every damn time I go to buy doll clothes. Most of the time, I wish that the companies could keep the measurements standard while making the appearance of the bodies a little different for each one. So I'm torn.

3. Do some people experience feelings of self worth, physical appeal, popularity, etc. vicariously through their dolls? How might this be healthy? How might this be unhealthy?

I don't know what other people experience. I know that I take pleasure in my dolls' idealized physiques. I have various medical conditions and I'm over 40, so I'm all screwed up. And I've never, ever been thin. So perhaps that's vicarious. *shrug* I love dressing them in clothes that I love, but would not wear. Uncomfortable clothes drive me absolutely mad! But my dolls don't care if their clothes are comfortable or not. They can wear things that are too young for me, too revealing for me, the wrong color for me, etc, etc, ad infinitum.

4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not? Tangentially, can a doll be too real? Is it the realism, or lack thereof, that draws you to BJDs?

I am living, they are not. I win.

Tangentially, I love realistic dolls. The more realistic the doll, the more fascinating it is to me. I love that BJDs are usually anatomically correct. (I would love to own a flaccid/turgid mold, if I had the cash and the patience to actually acquire one.) I love that they usually have fingernails, and earlobes, and muscles and fat pockets where the human body has them. Not creepy to me.

 

1. Is the slim, realistically uncommon physique, favored by the vast majority of ABJD molds, more for aesthetics or for functionality?

Both. You could probably make a fatter doll that posed as well as a thinner one, but they're so uncommon that I don't think many people (especially not commercial doll artists) have really considered ways to do it. Besides, with the general perception that fat = bad, I doubt many people will try.

2. Is there room within the ABJD aesthetic for a wider range of body types, including older or less idealized physiques?

NO. SHUN THE FATTIES! I'm kidding. Of course I think there's room for a wider range of body types, and I wish there were more of them.

One thing I've noticed is that there seem to be a lot of athletic-looking boys, but no athletic-looking girls. Sure, they're thin, but that's not the same. IMO most female dolls are built like models, and a model doesn't look the same as, say, a runner, swimmer or a tennis player.

3. Do some people experience feelings of self worth, physical appeal, popularity, etc. vicariously through their dolls? How might this be healthy? How might this be unhealthy?

I don't know. I know that a lot of people have body issues, but I'm not sure how that relates to dolls. I have body issues, but I don't think my dolls have anything to do with them, nor do I aspire to look like a doll. I will say this much, though: if you can't love your body, then that's damn sad. (And yes, I'm well are that it's almost the 'norm' for people to be unsatisfied with their bodies.)


4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not? Tangentially, can a doll be too real? Is it the realism, or lack thereof, that draws you to BJDs?

Apples and oranges. You can't compare BJDs with real human bodies. And I find BJDs appealing because they seem to meet a happy medium of 'realistic' and 'unrealistic' rather than one or the other.

IAWTC. I own LOTS of pale and thin dolls, and I'd like a bit more variety. Although the problems that people have had with tanned dolls make me wary of buying non-pink/white resin.

Also, this is probably going to sound like I'm being overly-PC... But I'm sick of the term 'Normal skin'. I hate using it. Normal skin = pink, so dark skin = not normal? wtf?

 

That lineup format makes me slightly disturbed. I don't know what it is- it looks like they're about to go to prison or something, that and the looks on their faces. I will agree that in the human mind we *do* associate plump or small with childlike characteristics- which is why people still use short men as comic relief differently than they would someone of more 'average' height, because they're seen as childish. People will react differently to a petite woman than a woman of American average height or taller build because they either unconsciously associate her with a 'girl' (as in, young child, vulnerable, playful, so on) or are unnerved by the fact that she's not.

The doll on the far left in that lineup, with that combination of maturer features and more childlike, plump body looks disturbingly almost prepubescent, like it doesn't match up. I think it's cute, but it's the opposite of the typical aesthetic like you could see in a blythe doll- big, 'baby doll' head and sexually mature body. I'm not saying that I dislike it or that it really *is* disturbing but as someone just out of that gawky stage myself it seems a little out of balance.

I've seen dolls that manage it though, usually art dolls. Hmm.

 

1. Is the slim, realistically uncommon physique, favored by the vast majority of ABJD molds, more for aesthetics or for functionality? Hard to say...part of it has to be casting and weight issues. Resin is tricky stuff, and I'd imagine "thicker" parts would be more prone to improper casting. Thats how it works in bronze, anyhow; you can get mass, or you can get detail, but getting both is a delicate, frustrating thing. It's not impossible, but I'd imagine the margin of error would go up...not to mention prices. As well all know, resin is pricey! Slender keeps costs down, in a very practical way...and I have to wonder what it'd do to the flexibility of the doll, without having more extreme versions of those sort of...curves that are built into some dolls. (Domuya, anyone?) Personally I'm not a fan of those curve-things, I think it looks odd when the doll is in a more "natural", standing/sitting pose.

2. Is there room within the ABJD aesthetic for a wider range of body types, including older or less idealized physiques? Or would such dolls belong in another category altogether? If dolls with less idealized physiques do belong in another category, is that purely adherence to the "BJD Aesthetic", or a disturbing rejection of real bodies and the people who inhabit them? Couldn't say. I'm new-ish to the forums, so my opinions are pretty much uninfluenced, and I don't know what the general population would say. Me, I wouldn't mind it; that said, I'm turbo-picky about body sculpts as it stands, so more variety would be welcome. (I do have to say I'm way happy to find more "mature" female sculpts, which while not actually being more mature than maybe mid-20's, aren't boob-tastic) So long as the proportions look right, I'd be happy to have more variety. I don't think they'd necessarily belong in another category.

I don't see the current sculpts as a rejection of "real bodies." BJD bodies, at least the younger ones like most MSD girls, look more like I did at that age than any other type of doll I've found. I was a skinny, lanky, androgynous little thing("Mommy, is that a boy or a girl?" ....I kid you not. ), so it makes me happy on some level to see something similar, later in life...there are healthy, natural, "real bodies" that look like BJDs. They may not be considered "normal", but what on earth is normal, anyhow?

3. Do some people experience feelings of self worth, physical appeal, popularity, etc. vicariously through their dolls? How might this be healthy? How might this be unhealthy? I suppose most people would be experiencing things vicariously through dolls...but isn't that sort of the point of dolls, and toys in general? I've always thought that was part of the fun of it; that's where I find a large part of the appeal. It's also why games like World of Warcraft are so popular, among other things. It goes between healthy and unhealthy, really...escapism, fantasy, neither are bad things on their own. Its when they become excessive that they become dangerous. An individual still needs to be able to function in the real world, regardless.

4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not? Tangentially, can a doll be too real? Is it the realism, or lack thereof, that draws you to BJDs? I find the appeal of BJDs for me is that they balance right between realism and fantasy. Most of them appear ageless; they make ideal models for art and clothing and photography. I'm looking forward to constructing fairly eccentric outfits, once I purchase my first doll; things I have nowhere to actually wear, myself, or are far to impractical to make on my own scale. It'll likely turn into an expression of my ideal aesthetic without "real world" or practical limitations. Personally, I find that all sorts of exciting.

As far as the first part of the question? I don't find them more perfect than humans; speaking from a personal philosophy, they can't be more perfect. Imperfect beings cannot, should not, create perfection.

I do find them more ideal, if not more perfect than humans, for certain situations; the ultimate, uncomplaining model who will never get ill, gain or loose weight, or die. I also find them a far more healthy venue for escapism than an actual human being(or one of those little fluffy dogs that ends up dressed up and carried around like a toy.)

Aaaand...that's my ramble. *dusts off soapbox, scurries off*