Real Bodies and the ABJD Aesthetic

1. I dunno much about BJDs, but in cloth dolls I find that a slimmer body is better for functionality sake. The wire-and-ball joints work better when the limbs are thinner, and thinner limbs warrant thinner bodies.



2. I think variety is nice ^_^. I feel that the jointing system and customizability are what make ABJDs ABJDs.

3. Again, this is experiance as a cloth doll maker, but yes. I do kind of live through my dolls. This holds for all of my creations, though. They are an expression of my soul, beyond what my physical body could be.


4. As a doll maker, I find that each of my creations makes me appreciate the living body more and more. Dolls are illusions of humanity and no amount of face-up, nor sophisticated joints, will make them as perfect as the natural human body. IE: Joints are some of my favorite things. However, what takes me hours to create in cloth or clay came naturally to my living body.

 

With the possible exception of the new Domuya bodies, I think bjd have some of the healthiest-looking bodies in dolldom! I love how sturdy and strong many of them look. I'm especially thinking of Volks and Hypermaniac here...

I did look at that Dollstown link and was surprised that the Bandi (A) body disturbs some people. I guess it's that realistic!! The skinny (B body) ones look emaciated next to it. I wish they still made the Bandi because I'd love to have a Bandi, but her healthy-looking cheeks atop the emaciated B body...? eurrgh! XP But that's beside the point, haha...

I love faces that have big ears or noses... that sort of thing, so I'd love to see bodies with big hands and feet, too... whether it's done realistically or stylized. I'd love to see more variation because to me the doll is the most important thing, not the paint and not the clothing.

Just my random 2 cents
Raven

 

The Bandi body is really really skinny. My Bandi looks almost exactly like a woman I know in RL who is so tiny and thin she is 50 years old and yet wears Youth size t-shirts. It is a bit of an abnormal body type, and she has had health problems. I think the Dollstown Bandi A body is fine if you're doing like a little emaciated "Flowers in the Attic" type creature, or a very young girl, but I agree that it's not "normal" in the sense of a healthy body.

 

Eh? The Bandi body is the one on the far left (normalskin tone) in the lineup. It's also called the A-type body... To me it looks robust and healthy!

The Estella body (modeled by Yeondu and Lucille in pinkwhite) is the skinny one, aka Type-B, and (I agree with you), adorably waif-ish!

I remember having this body problem when I bought Elysia. I couldn't stand her on the waifish body, as it didn't suit her character at all! I wanted to make her a strong Mongolian horsewoman/girl, but I wasn't ready to invest a lot of time and resources to find the discontinued A body for her. On the other hand, when I had Susie, she wouldn't have looked good on any body but that skin-and-bones type B.

*sigh* Variety is a good thing!!
Raven

 

I'm only going to answer question 3 because it's the only one that interests me. Sorry!

Anyway, as a creator/designer, as well as a consumer, there's a great divide between things that we like and things that we ourselves would wear. It isn't so much a matter of low self esteem all the time (though I admit this could be the case with some people), but in my case, it's a sense of personal beauty and aesthetics.

For instance, I love shiny, glittery things, like faceted gemstones and other such things. However, I feel that they do not compliment me personally if I were to wear them. My preference lies in more simplistic designwork and rounded gemstones rather than intricate designs and too much tiny detail-- these simply look better on me. However, for some people, they're able to wear those sparklies with extreme effectiveness, and more power to them!

Now, so far as dolls are concerned, considering that they are, as well crafted as they may be, simplified versions of people, they are able to adapt to a broader range of style and color. This would, yes, allow an owner to own some kind of clothes or jewelry they themselves like but would not wear, and have it do more than just sit in a drawer or something.

So, I really don't think the decision to have your doll wear something you wouldn't is always related to levels of self esteem. In many cases I believe it's because of self awareness-- as someone stated, some doll owners are older and would not wear some types of 'young person' clothing-- it could look very silly, or simply be uncomfortable for them for social and personal reasons. In this case it would be the projection of desired aesthetics on to a form more suited to such visual aesthetics.

I don't see anything wrong with this, nor do I see anything wrong with preferring what is considered 'beautiful' by society's standard. I do see a lot of 'well, why aren't there fat dolls????' and aside from the complications of sculpt and mobility, the general consensus of our society is that the 'preferred' shape is different than that. Not that they can't be beautiful in their own right, but society is what it is, and that's neither right nor wrong.

 

Interesting

I have to be honest , I dont think of it at all ...only what I like and what I dont

when I designed my dolls ...Moona and Bracken , skinny and ..almost shapeless ..because it reminded me of my Son when he was a child ...he was long and thin ..he ate like a horse ...still dose ..and was all legs and earholes

now he has filled out a little ...

Coco and BonBon ...was very personal ...to myself and a lot ...an awful lot ,
of my collectors ...I half joked when I said I was doing a fat fairy

I couldnt believe the response ...she was so popular, even from the drawing stage ...I had to go ahead and do her

I get some wonderful ...inspiring e.mails from people who have been large all of their life
and can relate to big and beautiful,Pms from people thanking me for dareing to do them

I know there is a demand ...I can honestly say I have only received a couple of negative comments ...which I choose to ignore

whether its her size as well as her shape ...I dont know if that's why she works r ,
its harder to find clothes to fit her ..
but we are getting there ...and BonBon and Coco`s fans are resourceful!
but thats the only drawback about them we have found
I thought there may be problems with her poseing ...but no more or less than another her size
she is a new size and style ...as more makers buy her ...more clothes become available

so from my point of view ...there is no drawback from making a tubby fairy


I think as the market expands ...some collectors want something different
artist want to push their creativity ...its what you do ...
I think you are going to see more unusual moulds , sculpts ...concepts
all ABJD in inspiration and aesthetics

whether they are deemed off topic ...like BC new Ping and Buddy Doll ..because they simply don't fit into the traditional look
or other reasons ....they will come
I dont envy the Mods job ...I think it will get harder and harder

as a collector ...I prefer tiny ...No ! Not me !!! BUT I LOVE to see different body types , shapes and sizes ...and the variety of styles ...it what makes collecting so exiting
whether it be Berman to Lati White ...

 

1. Is the slim, realistically uncommon physique, favored by the vast majority of ABJD molds, more for aesthetics or for functionality? (Added For Clarity: The combination of features, including slenderness, legginess, the large head, narrow shoulders, small hands and feet, etc, which you would not commonly find all together in one human body, purely aesthetics, or at least partly good engineering? Feel free to read my longer post on this further down the page.)

~Depending on where you live...Slim is not completely unrealistic...especially in certain social circles. I do not think BJD's are made slim for Good engineering. Not completely. The simple body design of them makes is easier for marketing and designing clothing. You can use ONE body type for a multitude of looks. It just makes sense. More people will be drawn to this body type.


2. Is there room within the ABJD aesthetic for a wider range of body types, including older or less idealized physiques? Or would such dolls belong in another category altogether? If dolls with less idealized physiques do belong in another category, is that purely adherence to the "BJD Aesthetic", or a disturbing rejection of real bodies and the people who inhabit them?

~I personally would LOVe a bit more rounded body. I"m a FAN of ROUND. Just like a child who inherently prefer a rounded face and happy look. Don't get this mistaken with obese (not that I'm offended by it...but it's not healthy)

A THICKER doll would have to be done right and I believe this would be a challenge to many of the designers out there. I'd Also love children dolls with Full Bellies and chunkier legs...cause I personally prefer this look in children and I'm sure it's shaded by my own children's appearance.

3. Do some people experience feelings of self worth, physical appeal, popularity, etc. vicariously through their dolls? How might this be healthy? How might this be unhealthy?

Self worth through a doll? Hmmm...I'll have to think on that. Nope...I don't think that suits me....but it could for some. I do however get a thrill out of sharing my dolls with people...and a thrill from getting a response. So maybe this isn't so cut and dry?

Example: A person who creates beautiful dresses and sexy lingerie for their dolls, but considers their own body too imperfect to warrant the same adornment.

~MOST DEFINATELY.

4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not? Tangentially, can a doll be too real? Is it the realism, or lack thereof, that draws you to BJDs?

~A DOLL is a DOLL. We buy them...spend the money on them because they speak to us. They ARE beautiful. But PERFECT? Are they more perfect than a PERSON? I think NOT. LOL. They are lacking so many fundamental skills to even be considered inherently perfect. They are Resin....

~Meee

 

I'll be honest, I do not see a lot of differences between the bodies. One is slightly skinnier, but both of them strike me as waify bodies. A non-waif body of a young girl to me would be something like the Aoi-tuki Otohime.

Perhaps part of the issue is that my Bandi's faceup and styling is like a mature woman - it's a Pepstar face-up and she looks about 30-35 years old. When I put her next to my other "mature" bodied female dolls such as the Limhwa girls, Fin, the Twiglimbs body etc. Bandi seems abnormally small and thin for her "age". The Dollstown 15 body would probably be more appropriate for her presentation, but the reason I bought her was largely because she did resemble this acquaintance of mine, so she'll be staying as is and not getting a more "grownup" body.

 

Ok, I have to weigh in here... but only for question four:

4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not?

French social theorist Jean Baudrillard says in Simulacra and Simulations that a copy of an original (here a doll vs human form) is by its nature not as perfect as the original. Is a van Gogh print more perfect than the original painting? Some would say yes. The original painting is cracked and faded while the print doesn't show the age of the piece, even if the print tries to replicate the flaws of the original. But Beaudrillard (and I) think the original will always be the best. The most flawed human body will always be more complex and wonderful than the most beautiful doll.

Seeing that question brought flashbacks to grad school. Sorry

 

Really bored, so here goes.


1. Is the slim, realistically uncommon physique, favored by the vast majority of ABJD molds, more for aesthetics or for functionality?

Hmm, I don't think most of the physiques of BJD's are that realistically uncommon. Sure, you've got pieces that would be out of proportion, but in my opinion, they look like people I see everyday at school.
Don't take this the wrong way, but my body isn't that much different from most of the boy bodies. Just look at my profile and you'll see that consistent thinness you see in the dolls. I'm sure the dolls look like that for aesthetic reasons seeing as how I really don't see a full-figured doll having hindered functionality.

2. Is there room within the ABJD aesthetic for a wider range of body types, including older or less idealized physiques? Or would such dolls belong in another category altogether? If dolls with less idealized physiques do belong in another category, is that purely adherence to the "BJD Aesthetic", or a disturbing rejection of real bodies and the people who inhabit them?

Um, probably not as dramatic as I think that sounds. I'm sure it's not a rejection of real bodies, but rather what we see in media today mixed with tradition (cultural or otherwise).

3. Do some people experience feelings of self worth, physical appeal, popularity, etc. vicariously through their dolls? How might this be healthy? How might this be unhealthy?

Don't have a doll so I can't comment.

4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not? Tangentially, can a doll be too real? Is it the realism, or lack thereof, that draws you to BJDs?

A little of both for the first question. They don't have the range of movement humans do (obviously) but the bodies seem to bring a certain type of joy to their owners.
I don't think a doll can be too real as much as I believe a human can be too fake (figuratively and literally). A doll will always be a doll, and it'll be tough getting past that (for me, at least).
And for the last question, the body itself in its purest form does not draw me to BJD's. It's the expressions the body can...well, express, that draw me to the doll. This is of course behind the sculpt.


Hope I didn't sound like a complete arse

 

i will never see why people feel the need to degrade anything because of its body shape. for me, if i see someone who is clearly anorexic or extremely thin - it concerns me due to their health, not how it looks!

i am not amazingly thin, i am skinny, though. and i will sometimes get comments passed about how i am too thin. i eat healthily and feel fine. why do people need to do that? or make jokey remarks. its like you cant be a little thin or a little big without remarks being made! wheres the happy medium here...if people want overweight dolls, whats so horrfic about ones that are a little underweight?? theyre both equally slightly unhealthly.

btw, i love both moona and coco ^^ i am honestly suprised youve had some negative remarks.

 

I'm very new, but I'll jump in here anyway.

1. Is the slim, realistically uncommon physique, favored by the vast majority of ABJD molds, more for aesthetics or for functionality?

While functionality probably plays a small part, aesthetics is probably most of the reason ABJD are the shape they are. The aesthetic is often of a fantasy ideal. I preferred the Unidoll Ark, though, as a more complex character. I'd love to age his body, though.

2. Is there room within the ABJD aesthetic for a wider range of body types, including older or less idealized physiques? Or would such dolls belong in another category altogether? If dolls with less idealized physiques do belong in another category, is that purely adherence to the "BJD Aesthetic", or a disturbing rejection of real bodies and the people who inhabit them?

There seems to be room for dolls with scars and the like, but that doesn't address body type. I think there's room for any type of doll, and a market for them, as well. It just wouldn't be a large market.

3. Do some people experience feelings of self worth, physical appeal, popularity, etc. vicariously through their dolls? How might this be healthy? How might this be unhealthy?

This is undoubtedly true of some people, but then again, other people use their children or pets or fanart/writing characters for the same thing. It could be healthy in the absence of other social support, but unhealthy in its ultimately isolating effect.

4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not? Tangentially, can a doll be too real? Is it the realism, or lack thereof, that draws you to BJDs?

Because they are reduced to an ideal and produced in numbers, and made of durable materials, dolls are inherently more perfect than the human body. It is realism that draws me to BJDs, however, the challenge of representing what could be a real person in the reduced form. Could a doll be too real? Not for me. Bring on the warts and wrinkles.

 

1. The idealized silhouette for real humans in for a great deal of today's modern societies happens to be "slim and long," and companies would be stupid not to capitalize on that. But I'm sure that the predominantly slim, leggy body silhouette is at least somewhat for functionality - which parts need weight, what supports what well and the like - and the aesthetic conformity between companies is useful for clothing and footwear sharing as well. I seriously appreciate good poseability and balance, even in unorthodox or unattractive silhouettes, and think that with these dolls (artist dolls too, if they're intended to be poseable) that should be the first consideration.

2. It really depends. I'm not going to pretend that there is no widely recognized ABJD aesthetic for sculpts - and I'm not as forgiving as many about it. If a doll looks more like a fashion doll, porcelain doll, western poly sculpted fairy/baby/etc or whatever, it's not an abjd to me - and that includes a number of dolls allowed on these boards, who shall remain unnamed; I'm sure they won't suffer from one person's opinion anyway. I don't think the head necessarily has to be big, shoulders narrow, or extremities small, though.
The same ideas will extend to the shape of the body somewhat if only because the abjd-type face characteristics will not mesh well with every possible body type. Domadoll's darling new Super Heroine Venus (LOVED her story), even with her little belly, still doesn't really deviate from the standard silhouette (and she's a smaller type, anyway, so the standard changes a bit). I'm trying to envision a Botticelli-esque silhouette - possible. A Botero-esque one? Well, maybe. I'd really have to see one first, after it got through with the trial of pose engineering. Anything's possible when it's not yet realized. I'm imagining a mountainous Samoan doll right now - actually pretty cool in my mind :P But impossible to say if it'd count.
"ABJD" is not equivalent to pretty or worthy at all to me, nor is it equivalent to "BJD".

3. Beautiful dolls and photos reflect a keen sense of styling or eye for beauty, and/or photography and customization skills/resources on the part of the owner, not any particular physical or inner beauty, or even regular fashion sense, of the owner. I know of at least a few people on the boards who've asserted that they live vicariously through the fashion lives of their dolls. That's fine, but I'm not one. My flaws would sadden me as usual regardless, and it's up to me to fix them if I can, or live with them; I'm a realist. Only a fraction of the clothing I see as beautiful on my girls would be anyting considerable for myself even disregarding my body's physical suitability to "pull it off" - lots of looks, without getting specific, are ostentatious enough to be totally goofy (unless you're a drag queen) or skimpy enough to be totally slutty, yet to a point they look comfortable and demure on dolls, who have no personal motive/rationalizations behind what they wear. For a person with a "trashy" outfit on, one's mind immediately registers its impression of the wearer's mindset, inviting judgement on the wearer's personality. With dolls one can always construct an appropriate situational context, however imaginary it may be.
To do otherwise is unhealthy insofar as it may lead to real disappointment if one cannot separate vicarious lives from reality, I guess (popular dolls don't make better people). I don't think I know anyone like that.

4. A doll can certainly be too real for a particular purpose, depending. It's not as if pretty/idealized automatically equals unrealistic. There are a great many cases of humans whose faces/bodies are really simple, smooth and symmetric enough that they look "perfect" (at least after airbrushing), but they're still somewhat rare and thought not to exist, so dolls who may in fact be modeled after them can be considered unrealistic. Tall, slender, smooth, toned bodies, though I don't profess to have one, are not that uncommon. All too often, realism is taken as equivalent to the perceived errors and inconsistencies in the topography of the human form, and as such, to make something more real is at times tantamount to making it more flawed, for some. I don't think that's necessarily right, and in any case it takes talent to reconcile this with both beauty (if one cares about that) and the ABJD aesthetic. I can love a flawed, perfect reconstruction of a human in a sculpted figure just fine. It's just not the same concept.

I don't see that fair variety in the arena of body type is in any way a responsibility, or even ideal. I just don't need my dolls to look like me or to represent me in any other way than my sense of style, aesthetic eye, storytelling, faceup/clothesmaking/photography skills, abstract ideals, or other such traits. The wish to make all anthropomorphic images conform to one's individual visage (after the wish to anthropomorphize everything in the first place) seems born of a unique self-centeredness...I'm not saying people who think that way are bad people, or that I'm innocent of anthropomorphizing, 'cause I'm not, but I am glad they cannot always get their way. There is value in body type variety, but for the sake of having a range of options available, and possible individual cases of real artistic connection. I'm not particulary invested in it at the moment, it's just variety for variety's sake for me, and even then I'm not interested in extreme departures, as they wouldn't be able to wear the fortune's worth of dolly wardrobe in my closet.

Well, except some hybrids. *thinks on a particular awesome new succubus*

 

i really want a female doll that is more voloptuous than the standard 'size' that most companies make. i mean, i look at the anthro dolls (pipos, zuzu delf etc.) and i think to myself "they're chubby, they've got round pot bellies and chubby arms and legs; why can't i find a HUMAN doll that's like that?"
i want a female doll that has a big backside, broad hips, chubby arms and legs and big breasts. but they just dont make them. the only females i can find are either slim and slender adults or flat-chested teenagers. this has nothing to do with anything sexual; i would just like a doll that reflects my own physical image, if that makes sense.
at the end of the day, the manufacturers make the moulds to suit what the general audience is looking for, which usually means slim and slender. just maybe one day they might make dolls to suit the minority as well.

 

Not to go totally off topic, but have you seen this little one? Maybe along the lines you're looking for..
http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200950&highlight=okja

 

OMG THATS AMAZING!
she's very chunky and so cute too!

 

That's really adorable.

 

You're right about the article and the change in diet. My parents were born only seven years after the end of the Korean war (in a rural area at that), so I've heard a lot of their stories on decades of economic strife, high infant mortality, food shortages, malnutrition, and starvation. For many girls, they didn't start menstruating until they were 15+. It wasn't until later decades that things like bread, meat, dairy, and other animal by-products became available, which then increased the life expectancy. But I've also read about fast food chains in Asia that still use less oils and fats than their Western counterparts. Some even have special Eastern-blended recipes, like teriyaki burgers.

My mother was lucky enough to be born into a well-off family, so she was always on the curvier side due to the better food. My father? Lactose intolerant, scrawny, had to fight tooth and nail just for one meal per day, the works. I guess I'm a franken-mix of the two thanks to genetics and both an Eastern & Western diet and upbringing. I have no issues with milk, I'm tall compared to most females (5'7), I have defined hips and thighs, but I also have small breasts and weigh in at 100 lbs. Evil metabolism is evil. Similiar to what other people in the thread have experienced, there are moments of insecurity and self-doubt at times from looking like a coat rack compared to my gorgeously curvy 36C-42DD Western friends.

I understand that BJD manufacturers probably want to adhere to a standard of aesthetics and consistent sizing, but after seeing the many variations in the same BJD sizing group, jointing systems, bust size, waistline, fantasy limbs, etc. already, I don't think it's impossible to go that extra step and have fuller figured or athletic dolls with the appropriate wardrobe. Some people point out the difference between "chubbier" Volks MSD and slimmer minis, some claim that Elfdolls are "fat" compared to most larger sculpts, some have smaller/bigger hands/feet that make shopping a nightmare, so on and so forth. But I also understand the limitations that too much size adjusting can bring - doll surfaces can't be malleable like human skin, and they may lose out on balancing and posing if you put too much emphasis on one part of the body.

"My Name is Kim Samsoon" is great, by the way. X3

Imagine my mother's horror when she went back for a visit to Korea, only to be told very rudely by a shop employee that she should go to a place with clothes she could actually fit into (she's not fat and she wasn't even trying anything on - she was browsing!). It's an attitude that probably wouldn't be tolerated in a Western country if you complained to management, but being "fat" (again, a highly subjective standard) is stigmatized even more so in Asia. Hopefully, more companies will take a cue from the changing Asian body types and go Domadoll's way in terms of innovation.

Totally agreed.

 

1. Is the slim, realistically uncommon physique, favored by the vast majority of ABJD molds, more for aesthetics or for functionality?

I think it's a mix of both. In anime, everyone has such streamline figure, plus it's just appealing to the eye. I wouldn't want a super, skinny, bow-legged doll, nor would I want an overly 'chunky' doll, either (speaking as a 'chunky' girl, herself, lol). I don't think the girls are too skiny at all.

Now the guys... I think maybe they follow the Asian physique? I'm never all that pleased with the mature SD bodies because they don't have as much 'meat. They have muscles, but it's more of, once again, the kind of thin-muscle body you see in anime. Never that crazy about them.



2. Is there room within the ABJD aesthetic for a wider range of body types, including older or less idealized physiques? Or would such dolls belong in another category altogether? If dolls with less idealized physiques do belong in another category, is that purely adherence to the "BJD Aesthetic", or a disturbing rejection of real bodies and the people who inhabit them?

I certainly think there's room for thinner or larger male and female dolls! It would also lessen the amount of work an owner might have to do. Not too sure about doll bodies representing older BJDs. I think the fact that these BJDs all seem to represent the same age range takes the worry that your doll's body will work with everything in terms of physique. I mean, there's enough stress with resin matching.



3. Do some people experience feelings of self worth, physical appeal, popularity, etc. vicariously through their dolls? How might this be healthy? How might this be unhealthy?Oh, yeah, I definitely think we experience some amount of self-worth. It can be unhealthy if you take it too far, and start just going to your dolls instead of hanging with actual people.

4. Are dolls inherently more or less perfect than the living human body? Why or why not? Tangentially, can a doll be too real? Is it the realism, or lack thereof, that draws you to BJDs?

Well, I'll tell you, I envy a lot of these dolls' boobs - seriously. And they have much better bodies than mine, too. I like dolls that look human, but I also like the BJDs that look like anime characters, like Dollfie Dreams. If a doll is too real, I would think it'd be human-sized, because it's rare to come across a human as tall as a BJD, and looks like that.

I am drawn to BJDs partly because of their photogenic qualities.

** And, actually, humans are supposed to be lactose intolerant. The fact that most of us aren't is a mutation. Don't ask me where I heard this, because I don't remember, but I think it was either in a book, or a college Professor...**

 

I think the preference for slim bodies is a holdover from other more traditional, mainstream culture - art, media, fashion, etc. I'll admit I was startled to hear Volks bodies referred to as "chunky," and to discover slimmer bodies than theirs existed. To be honest, while the visible ribs on Volks bodies at first unnerved me, having worked in a Japanese junior high setting and seen 12-13 year old boys at sports day with their shirts off, the SD13 body is actually pretty accurate! The aesthetic is changing, as muscular male bodies have become popular, and mature dolls certainly are more prevalent. I do wish that some of the doll companies wouldn't sculpt in quite so much visible bone, as that does give the impression the doll is underweight . . .

My dolls are all based on OCs, and none of them are overweight, so slim bodies generally work for me. I sometimes have trouble finding girls, though, as they tend to be too built up front regardless how slim they are. I often seem to create non-curvy girls ^^;;;. A desire to be tall and skinny, perhaps? Most of my dolls are male, though, so they don't really reflect what I would want to look like . . .

(Most adult mammals are lactose intolerant. We're supposed to outgrow milk, but most humans don't because of that mutation. And in Japan drinking milk became a thing after World War II when the Americans introduced a school lunch system that served it. Japanese students get given a small carton of whole milk with lunch every single day. Dairy products are extremely prevalent and popular here these days.)