Recasting a company's doll in unavailable resin

*shrug* I sometimes think this hobby in general is too much about showing things off on forums. I get a lot out of the joy of doing things and enjoying myself without an audience commenting on my every move. I don't really crave the spotlight that way, and for me this Greek chorus of people commenting on things, or not commenting on things, detracts more from my experience than it contributes. But if you do like to show off your work, there are a lot of other places to post things besides a forum or two or three - blogs, websites, you name it. And as fitz noted, a lot of us would probably like to see it

 

Agree that the whole "gotta sell it" thing is really what gets people into trouble in this arena, as with most art.

I've often wondered what would happen if people just recast a super limited head and gave it away for free to people who promised not to ever sell it. The art would be in the guerilla distribution of the item as much as in the making of it. Of course someone would eventually mess up the whole concept by selling it or trying to.

 

If you bought the orginal and only make a cast for your own purposes (not for resale), I don't think there is anything technically wrong with it--you aren't making money off someone else's work and you paid for their doll originally.

I think the bigger issue is how you feel about the doll community at large and whether or not you care what they think. Making a cast would really rub some people the wrong way, and there will be forums that would consider it against the rules. If that isn't an issue, then it comes down to what you are morally comfortable with.

Even though it is not completely permenant (dyed dolls can get scuffed and may need to be redone or touched up periodically), but it would actually be a lot less trouble than making a cast, unless someone is really into making molds and enjoys that process.

I would not knock someone for making 1 cast just for themselves, but it's not something I would feel wholly comfortable doing myself (while I don't think it's technically wrong, it does cross into a moral gray area). The idea of making a cast of just an arm or leg as a replacement piece in case of breakage, or to modify (yes you can sometimes find spare parts, but that isn't necessarily going to be easy or possible to get just what you need)--that I don't have any issue with, provided they aren't actually sold to others.

 

Hmmmm, in my opinion, three words:

Don't do it.

=^w^=

You'd just end up wrecking a beautiful doll that costs a lot too. XP

 

I think making a cast just to get a different colour doll, is a bit silly and probably not a good thing to do. Making molds of limbs eg arms and legs not5 heads, should be ok when the company doesn't sell them them separately and after you asked of course. You can hate me for saying but when you waiting on a doll and when you get it and costums have destroyed it's leg or something, what are you going to do? Wait months on end trying to find a spare one, begging the company to sell the required limb that needs replacing or trying a make a new on from a cast of the other leg?

I would never personally make a doll from a mold of an other doll, I would make one from scratch. That way, I can add what I want as I make it. Get it to bend the way I want it or better yet be able to give my floating head a body that will fit it and adjust the skin tone so they would blend together nicely.

 

If you want to recast a doll you've bought to keep for yourself, honestly, if you don't tell people, they're probably never going to know.

But trying to resell it really is illegal... and then the company can come after you and sue you into oblivion... especially in America... and especially if they have the mold legally copyrighted (and I don't mean the "everything is copyrighted from creation" copyright, but the one where they physically send in the paperwork and pay the fees). You'd be broke beyond broke.

 

You hit it on the head. I really don't care about the mores of the "doll community at large." I see a lot of disagreement on such things anyway and I like to make my own decisions about what I personally think is right and wrong. This goes for any "community" I'm in, not just the one for dolls. I also think that community standards are, to some extent, meant to be challenged, and that challenge is a big part of art. Throughout history, you have a lot of examples of artists who shocked by going against whatever the "standard" was at that time. For example, drawing a mustache on the Mona Lisa - on one level, that showed disrespect for the Mona Lisa, but on another level, it made a different type of statement about both the Mona Lisa and the state of art in general.

If I were a seller or trying to get some sort of artistic recognition/community acceptance for my doll work, I would have to care more about what the community thought, because community reaction would have an influence whether I was able to make any sales or have my work recognized. It's nice to make sales and get kudos, and for some people it may be a big part of the reason they're in the hobby. The tradeoff is that you lose some freedom to be yourself and do what you want to do, because what you want to do might upset some people.

 

I really don't see why recasting a doll into different resin and colours is such a big deal in the end you still paid for the original and you paid for the material.

If I really wanted a doll in a certain colour resin I would try recasting because I'm not a fan of just painting the top of it.

It would only be wrong to me if it was sold off. Because its like stealing their design.
It would havever be ok if it was your own doll model.
Selling a customized original would be no problem either.

 

I can't imagine any context in which this is "right".
Copying is copying. Period.

(the example of artists copying old masters really doesn't apply. Many of them are no longer under copyright protection, and the rules for educational use have some extra allowances)

It doesn't really matter whwether you profit off a copy. The rule is not that you profit, but that you deprive the copyright owner of revenue. So making copies for your own use is not ok, even if they don't sell the parts exactly the way you want them. By recasting/copying you are not buying from them and that is depriving them of revenue.
If they only offer the whole doll, or only in certain colors, that's their right. No company is required to make the exact parts you want available how you want them. If you don't like that, then maybe choose only companies that do offer the spare parts you want. And if you want a different version than what they offer, the only legal and ethical option would be to mod purchased parts.
Recasting is just wrong on every level.

 

The thing about this is that I'm pretty sure all doll companies would be vehemently against it, both on general principle and because of the potential for selling or otherwise spoiling the intended "effect" of their mold/production.

You guys can always write the companies and ask, but I'd imagine the answer would be a resounding no. So would you be as gung-ho to do something you *know* makes the company really upset, after enjoying what they've produced for you? In that case it does become an ethical dilemma, even if they can't or won't legally do anything to you.

Of course, my answer to most of these debates about copying/casting/selling photos/other stuff that might be in bad taste to a company is "Ask the company, they'll give you the true answer better than anyone here can." But I imagine most people wouldn't do it because it would provide written proof that that thing they *really* want to do and "couldn't possibly hurt anyone for reals" really isn't okay, to someone important. This isn't about the OP per se, but anyone who really seeks validation from something like one of these threads should do just as well seeking validation (or having it denied) by way of the company. If one is willing to go against their wishes in order to get what one wants, I don't see that community morals would come into play for them at all and they should probably just admit that they don't give a shit.

Really though. I will admit that I don't really care about, for instance, record company lobbyists and their "poor us, we're not getting every penny possible that can be squeezed out of comsumers" mentality, because I know some about their policies, their pricegouging and their screwing over of the very artists they claim to be looking out for (I won't go into details or whether it's moot or not for me, those things being OT). But unless there's info of that sort out on the doll companies I love that I don't know about, they are a totally different entity (and ballpark, really). I do personally care about doing something that Luts (for instance) would consider screwing them over, like recasting their dolls or reverse-engineering their clothes or selling bootleg doll pic wallets, so I'm not planning on doing any of them, and it's on me to think on the grayer areas (like making an arm mold for a skeleton arm or whatever) or ask about them. Who knows, maybe the company would be okay with that, if there were a way to explain it really specifically, though I don't envy anyone that task.

I'm just saying that reasons like "it's the only way I can get what I want" and "people in other [hobbies, artistic genres, etc] do it all the time" and "but company x is soooo expensive" and stuff like that are not really reasons, IMO. Feel free to disagree.

Also, yeah, unless one's methods were amazingly professional the result of such a gambit would probably not be "dream doll" material anyway. And if the skill level *was* that high, how about an original sculpt?

 

Being a master of casting and a master of sculpting are not the same thing. They might not be able to create an original.

Besides, I think the idea was that the perfect MOLD was already out there, just not in the perfect resin.

 

In that case, we'd go back up to the paragraphs previous ^^ The last sentence was an afterthought.

 

Why not just petition the company for what you'd like.

They should be interested in hearing from the customers... and if they're not, then I'm not sure I'd want to buy from them anyways.

I've seen stated on here quite often "Oh, let's not bother the company"... but isn't it in their best interest to find out what the customer would like?

Why not create a petition of other people who would like to see done what you want done and send the suggestion to the company you would like to do it. IF they show an absolute unwillingness to do it, then create your own as a last resort..

 

Wha-huh? Have you ever made a mold of anything as complicated as a doll? I wouldn't say it's lazy, I'd say it's determined. LOL!

I don't think you'd be taking the trouble to recast an existing mold to NOT make a profit off of it unless you really, really, really wanted it. It's neither cheap nor easy.

Also, I know a lot of people have mentioned painting or dying the doll... but honestly, it would mortify me to permanently dye something I just paid $900+ for... especially blue, since dying, as far as I've seen, often comes out very unevenly.

 

Wait, I'm confused... so you're ok with people copying anything but dolls?... are you saying that paintings aren't art, or that painters need not be respected? And what constitutes "smaller things"? How is it ok to copy some things but morally wrong to copy dolls?

Wouldn't you be "learning" the techniques of mold making by copying a doll? I don't understand how you're distinguishing one thing from the other. Dolls from paintings, etc.

 

By recasting, all you're learning is how to make a mold and pour resin (neither of which take an excruciating amount of skill). You're learning nothing about designing or sculpting... so in that way, I can't view it on the same level as a master study at all. That, and the intent is different. Masters studies aren't done to produce an identical piece of art; they're done with the intent to learn and improve.

 

I agree, your intent when doing a master study is something completely different... but I didn't get the sense that Quilibet meant a master study, since they mentioned copying other things as well for no profit and "learning experience"... and since someone a few posts above had brought paintings into context in terms of "copying them for you wall or just to see if you could do it" which implies no "master study" at all, but rather just outright copying of someone else's work to have an "almost original" in your own home.

I was just pointing out that it is still a learning experience to recast a doll, and was wondering how they were distinguishing things... and also wondering what "small things" were, and how copying those is any different.

 

I'm going to throw my hat into the ring here and say as an artist .. I would be horrified if someone made a mold and recast one of my dolls. I would feel violated. It's got nothing to do with the monetry side of it .. it is just wrong to steal someone elses design for any reason IMO.

 

In my opinion, though I know that many companies would never do such a thing (as pertaining to taking custom color requests) it would only be acceptable if you had tried ALL other venues to get your dream doll. Asking the company, attempting to bleach/dye your doll and etc.

Otherwise it is not acceptable.

I really do think the people saying that recasting would make it horribly ugly and the wrong size and all that are kinda silly. Plus if someone wanted the doll so bad and they wanted to spend the money involved in moldmaking to produce it, let them. As long as it is for personal use there is nothing wrong legally as far as I know.

I do think it'd be more rewarding to, say, bleach the doll with toothpaste/baking soda and such how people do to get rid of yellowing, then redye it yourself rather than just make another doll.
I'm not sure of the mods opinions on the issue, as for whether it could be posted or not, since I read just the first page, however.. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable posting them because as others have stated you'd get ridiculous hate mail..

Then again, I'd never cast anything but my own creation. It's kind of a hard issue. However regardless of the moral implications as long as it is not for profit then there isnt anything wrong, just like you can rip music from a cd you bought onto your computer and also make backup discs of your operating system (repair discs, as windows calls them) and games as well..

 

Hm. I definitely agree that it's artistically unethical TO THE MAX to recast a doll, even if they don't make it in the colour you like, etc etc. If you want to practice mold-making you don't need to do if from a company's doll. Unlike copying the masters in terms of painting and such (where the idea is to leanr how they acheieved various effects and learn the techniques they used, where it DOES make a different what you're using as your example) learn to mold and cast doesn't require you to have an amazing base to wrok from- you can mold and cast an interesting stick or a key or what have you if you're after detail- it will teach you more or less the same things. If you want to learnt he art of doll making you may want to base your doll on one you consider a particularly fine example of ball jointed doll art, and try to sculpt following its lines, etc.... and then once you have a good grasp on how it's done you make your OWN version if you want to sell it.

I could go on, but... I don't think it's really right to recast an "art" doll (which BJDs are), just really don't. Even taking apart clothing and making something with that pattern is different to me, because the end result will be made of a different material, sewn differently, etc- and it's more of a learning experience than recasting something. Oh, THAT'S how they did those darts, and that's how they got the hem to hang that way, etc etc. I doubt anybody would bother deconsturcting a garment to make a copy if they didn't need to see how it was done- otherwise they could just draft a pattern without needing to see the specific construction, because they'd know what pieces they need, how things work.

I'm probably getting rambly here. But I don't think any piece of "art" sculpture, which includes BJDs, should be recast. Recasting something never meant as art is different to me- making a mold of screws or buttons or something else like that... but recasting a piece of art to make your own version of that work, it just makes me feel kind of... angry and uncomfortable somehow. ^^;