Recasting a company's doll in unavailable resin

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, since it's worth bringing up in the spirit of debating...

The idea in the first post was to cast the doll because the company did not make one in the color desired. If the caster bought the orginal, then that money went to the company. Since there is no company made equivilent to the recast doll, there is no revenue to be stolen (unless the caster started selling copies everywhere). There is no blue doll from company X for the caster to buy legitimitely.

The issue is not about money (which is a much more black and white issue) but about the ethics involved when something is only for personal use.

However, as someone else pointed out, casting is not going to give a person a break money wise do to the cost and amount of work involved.

 

but that's the whole point! The artist controls the copyright and they are the only ones who get to decide which versions to offer. It's not up to the buyer to decide for them. If the company does not make a blue doll, then they alone still have the only right to make that doll under copyright law. It's considered a derivative and only the original copyright owner is allowed to make derivatives. So even if it doesn't exist, does not mean anyone is free to make it.
Better to ask them to make it for you, and if they don't want to, then just accept their decision.

 

What I was saying pretained specifically to the comment I quoted about loss of revenue, not what is allowable under copyright law or what a particular company's wishes are.

I think it's pretty obvious that doll companies don't want people making casts for personal use. And to be honest, it's not something I would feel comfortable doing (it just doesn't feel right to me), and it's not something I would suggest someone else should do--I really think dying is the way to go in this case. HOWEVER...

When there is no monetary loss or damages to the company, what it comes down to is people being angry for less concrete reasons (though I can fully understand why they'd be upset). At that point, whether or not someone makes a single recast in a funky color for their own use isn't affecting the company in a negative way (even if it isn't on the up and up legally), I would back down and leave the decision to make a cast up to them--no joining an angry mob, no sending hate mail, because I don't think it's a community issue.

We're a self-policing bunch, which has very real benefits--a safer marketplace for one. However, sometimes I think it's better to leave some moral decisions up to the individual instead of trying to beat them senseless (verbally, not physically) and shunning them forever (which is the likely reaction should people on DoA get wind of it). I don't mean issues that affect the community as a whole such as scammers or selling illegal copies to others (that does affect company revenues), but stuff like this that is illegal but does no damage to company income or to other owners.

I guess part of the reason I keep saying it's not completely not ok, is mostly a reaction to the tendency a lot of people have to feel that that they constantly need to act as watchdogs for the companies. This is something between the owner who decides to cast and the original company.

 

google up regulations and laws regarding "copyright" there should be plenty answers there. otherwise this website (it's australian but it's modelled on international treaties) is quite useful: www.copyright.org.au

particularly this page: http://www.copyright.org.au/information/specialinterest/visart.htm

it's quite interesting after reading most of it, even in situations where you copy for personal use, you would still need to obtain permission to copy and also to be mindful that "personal use" is very limitedly defined. i guess the bottom line is if an item is copyrighted, which in this case it would be, then by merely copying a substantial part of it constitutes an infringement of copyright unless permission has been granted.

 

I think everyone has made great paonts and interesting points of vew ^-^ I personaly think that if its NOT no mater what! going to be sold then I guess. I wouldnt say its the best idea, and not one i truly favor but if your not making a profit*ending up OUT money 4 casting suplts*, and wont be claiming credit for the sculpt then i guess you could. Though I'm sure if you took it to a convention and told the curious BJD owners what you did, it would more then likely be looked down upon.

OH btw! when I said "you" I didnt mean ANYONE!!! ^.^;; just the word that works best ^.^;;

-Kira

 

I would be completely against this, if the company wanted to create a doll in another resin then it's their choice.
If you really wanted a blue doll you could just mod it and dye it blue...but to completely recast the doll is getting too close to stealing the sculpt.

It's like buying someone's painting, tracing it and then adding more to it to suit your taste and then telling them it's okay because you wouldn't sell it. It's impolite and too borderline, I personally wouldn't feel comfortable doing that, anyway.

Besides, we would only have the owner's word they won't resell the doll. Theres really no guarantee of that...

 

Amen. Of course, again, if you simply don't share all your business with "the community" then you don't run into the problem.
I frankly think the entire "What does a person owe to a doll company?" issue could be an entire debate thread of its own.

 

unless you've studied law, and probably worked in the field a lot, you're not going to understand all the possible ramifications about this area of law from reading a website. it's a very complicated and dynamic area right now due to all the technological developments. it's fine to have and express a personal opinion based on one's interpretation of what you read on a website, in a book, etc. but i would caution people about thinking they know the law unless it's a specific factual situation and they've actually met with a lawyer (or are a lawyer - and a lawyer would never purport to say they know everything about the law because there's generally going to be a lawyer on the other side of the matter advocating a different view).

also, the law differs a lot country to country so US and Japanese law is going to be significantly different from whatever the EU or Australia is doing.

 

I think a lot of the things people are comparing this to are not very similar and completely different problems =/ And it would be hard to come up with some other similar situation since this is a rather specialized issue.

I'd be interested to see if someone emailed one of the companies and asked them what they think about this. Just saying "I was thinking of buying one of your dolls to recast in a different color for my own personal use, would that be okay with you?"

~Dottie

 

Or if you offered to buy them the colored resin they would need to cast it and pay them extra for going out of their way... maybe I don't understand casting... but if you were willing to compensate them extra for their time, and pay for the additional supplies... would it really be that difficult for them to create it for you? It's not like they have to create a new sculpt... and possibly not even a new mold...
I mean, yeah, casting in colors does seem to be tricky and more difficult... but it can't be that much more, otherwise no one would do it at all... or the prices of strangely colored dolls would be insane.

 

Um, just to add. I have asked before, and I have offered to pay more for the extra time and materials. I have asked a few companies and they have replied very nicely, “At this time we are not able to do such-in-such color resin. I apologize for the inconvenience.”

So, yeah….

Doll dying is not an option for everyone as it is not permanent, and I find it interesting that so many people only suggest dying the resin as the only option available for already made dolls.

Sculpting a doll does not come over night. Being a skilled sculptor is even more difficult; so unless that individual is a skilled sculptor, making a bjd may also be out of the option. And I find it rather difficult for the members on here to accept a “copy” of a newly sculpted doll that looks like that person’s dream doll. {seeing how it is that they want a certain sculpt and found it but want it in a different color, and pretty much every one here hates the re-casting idea.}

I believe that companies need to do what they want to do and offer what they want to offer as a company to stay afloat.
However I also think that an individual need to do what they want to do to make their doll experience pleasing experience.

 

It's interesting, I think, to see the different justifications for recasting.

I have a head right now that I would love to recast in white resin because it only comes in normal color resin. I have the knowledge and experience to do it well, so it is definitely a temptation. However, I bought one head, not the rights to the sculpt. More than that, though, my artistic integrity is worth more to me than having a white-skin head.

 

Idea, Why not dye the head or blush it white or whatever color you desire ^^

 

So far this discussion has been about re-casting a doll that already exists in a resin form. What about , for example, casting a Dollfie Dream body in resin to better match a resin head you had in mind? Not saying I would personally but it's something that hasn't yet been brought up.

 

Reasons for not doing this have already been posted, just FYI

For me I guess primary reasons for not recasting is that I just feel it is wrong. I know it would really piss me off if someone copied something I made with out my permission whether it was a dress, music or a doll. And the closer the object was to being a real copy the more it would piss me off. But in some instances- I dont feel I have moral responsibility to the company which makes the doll. And I think it is when they dont have any responsibility to me as the customer. If I owned a doll that fell apart, or turned from blue green to yellow, or a tan doll with terrible scratches and gatte marks on it; then I might want to make a copy. I certainly wouldnt want to sell it to an unsuspecting person on the board, that would be passing on my loss to them.

 

I think I could do it, but I am just to lazy. Its a lot of work for something that is not your creation. I could see doing feet in order to mod them, but thats about it.

 

I guess in a way it comes down to... do the companies need to adhere to every request of a customer? Do customers need to comply with the wishes of the company? I'd say there are pretty clear legal and ethical answers as raised before... but it is interesting. I suppose part of it is the "customer is always right" mentality which seems to be mostly an American idea... but is it true? I wonder if part of the reason that a lot of people argue against the legal and ethical "answers" is that they have internalized the idea "the customer is always right" and that mindset affects their opinions. I know there have been discussions on the "entitlement" issue before, but I guess this relates in a way- is a doll owner entitled to recast to make something they want but that the original artist doesn't provide them?

I still say no, but it's interesting to think about the reasons why people argue the way they do.

 

Perhaps beyond the concept of law or ethics... how about respect? Is it respectful to recast the work of an artist?

And how will your actions impact respect for the international community?

I think in Japan if you wanted something that an artist wasn't offering, it would be "shigata ga nai," or "Can't be helped." Your choice would be to either make something of your own design from scratch (in essence, be your own artist) or accept the "No." You would not petition the artist, or recast their work after being told, "No." Because it would not show respect to the artist.


Catrina