Sad Recast Realization :(

any costume item not made by an official vendor is a bootleg aka recast...

lol

I love how it's only evil when it's not you doing it...

 

I love how you're trying to portray cosplayers and recast supporters in the same light, in spite of piles of evidence to the contrary. It really makes me suspicious of your real motivations here, when you pick and choose the pieces that fit only your own belief, rather than looking at actual facts.

I typically find those that feel the need to cast the morality of others in a negative light typically have their own transgressions they're trying to either hide or rationalize. I see no evidence to the contrary here.

 

I'm just an artist who happens to hate hypocrits, and my arguments are based on legal law....

 

Have you ever heard the phrase, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt?"

Your arguments are based on a single speculative article with the word "could"--which is not a definitive term by anyone's definition except, maybe, your own--featured prominently in the headline. There's not a professor in the world who would accept that sourcing as "legal law." Mine are based on multiple sources, showing both the cases where it could have an impact, and also demonstrating that it has not had an impact, and I could continue to throw sources at you, while you will continue to put your fingers in your ears and sing to yourself.

Regardless, I have no time to waste with die-hard recast supporters or fools, and as you've demonstrated yourself to meet at least one of those definitions, I have no more time to waste with your pig-headed insistence that you're right. It's a bit too much like trying to convince the thieves that they're thieves, a waste of time. You'll have to wise up on your own, and in the meantime, I sincerely hope that a fool is the only thing you are.

 

I think the only people who can cast morality are vegans who buy only local fair trade stuff and never bought anything with blood or chemistry on it.

And how beautiful would it be if all bjd owners would join together and save the planet? Wouldn't it be the best doll story ever? :-)

Just morning coffee thoughts. I'm not the one to throw stones neither to share my scarce bjd knowledge; nevertheless sometimes it's funny. Such a beautiful thing and soooo much of flame discussion.

After all we all die.

Peace.

 

I love how vaguely morbid that comment turned out

As for the actual question of artists and stolen work, yep. I think everyone has something from an artist they enjoy (be it bjds, a webcomic, or an etsy shop) and so I think pretty much everyone could relate to this in some way or another. It's pretty sad that art theft happens, it would be awesome if it didn't. Unfortunately a lot of people don't realize how damaging this theft can be to the hobby and it's economy, it creates so much distrust and so many issues with the second hand market.
I don't have any particular examples to share at the moment, but I feel a bit disappointed whenever I see any artist getting stolen, scammed, or cheated. So yeah, I've seen that happen a lot and each time I've felt that sadness you mentioned. It's especially bad when it's there ones who actually end their businesses because of it. Maybe we'll find a way to reduce recasts one day. I don't think we'll ever get rid of them completely, but maybe we could make so it isn't a problem anymore. That'd be nice.

 

Well, nobody copies me and I wait for it for so long! The very idea that someone is spending hours and hours with my artpieces trying to catch the glimpse of my ideas, trying to understand me so he could imitate me, such a nice image for my narcistic soul!

Jokes aside, I don't support the idea of artists and scientists being poor but it makes me think. Please don't get me wrong. But a friend of mine travels to China and she describes the life there as incredibely harsh. Even little kids are forced to be the best, every mistake is punished thousandfold, the man has to work hard to feed his family... I wonder if it would be possible for the creating companies to employ those who copy their art.

It sounds insane but you can't deny the logic of the idea:
(1) The copier understand the subject of copying very well and has to be an artist because you can't copy anything without the talent.
(2) They usually know how to deal with people and how to start business. If someone is able to be successfull in China, he or she will be able to succeed anywhere.
(3) I guess they love the dolls.
(4) The copying party loses X members, the legit companies will get X new members. I don't know, I imagine that they were charmed by bjd dolls as kids and now they really like to work with them.

Maybe we as the "first world lucky folks" can not imagine how hard it has to be on the other side. I think they suffer the most, they destroy Chinese beautiful nature, sacrifice their time, live in fear of hunger, competition (and the Chinese competition it one of the worst in the world, in science field it's hell on earth, they even burn each other's lab journals in order to publish the first!) and so...

I don't support recast, I'm just trying to think about the reasons and the possible solutions.

NOTE: Sorry, if my English is not exactly the Shakespearean jewel, after all I'm not the native speaker, so if anything offended you, let me know and give me chance to explain myself better. ;-)

 

Ok first off, I love your sense of humor. Secondly, I think it's always good to look at things from every different possible angle. It's always a good way to find solutions to problems. I think you're right, it makes logical sense for recasting to happen (I'm not saying it's ok or that I agree with it etc, etc, I'm only saying that it makes logical sense that it would happen in the first place) Unfortunately I'm not much help with finding solutions as my idealistic nature tends to kick in. Maybe if there was a way to ensure that artists are more protected financially against recasting and then if there was a way to improve the harsh life in those areas of China you mentioned? I have no clue how that could be done though.

 

Thanks, I love my sense of humour too!

You know, if I were the big (or "big") company, I would try to contact the recaster (after all he has to have a deep knowledge about the topic) and try to offer him a job in my company. If you're a recaster, you gain... I don't know how long does it take to develop all the recast stuff like the master, adjust the resin quality, communicate with customers. You can have like twenty, forty (if you're not selling them for fifty bucks) dollars per doll? Most of the Chinese people are really keen on getting to Europe or North America.

It's like in Macchiaveli's Ruler: You either have to destroy your enemies completely or make them loyal to you.

I like the Scandinavian idea of the basic income: every person gets UNCONDITIONALLY certain amount of money for a decent living, so people can pursue their dreams, travel, create, etc.

But that's more like an utopia for China, they are communists, though capitalistic ones.

I love how everyone has to mention he or she's against the recast. It like "of course, sugar is dangerous but pass me that donut or I will eat your sweet soul".

 

In an ideal world this would be a great solution, but unfortunately the reality isn't as rosy...

1) There is no artistic talent involved in recasting. There's really no skill at all, they just buy a doll from the company (or the recast supporters send them one), take it apart, make a mold from it, and use that mold to produce their copies.

2) and 3) As I've heard it, these companies aren't specializing in dolls like the artist-owned companies are. They're factories, probably running bootlegs of many different types of items, and dolls just happen to be somewhere they can get some easy cash. And that's all they care about, sadly. If they didn't, there wouldn't be damaged, low quality, or toxic dolls shipped out.*

3) The legit company may not be able to afford X new employees, and those employers don't give half a darn about BJDs anyway, they just want a paycheck so they can feed their families in a country suffering from crippling poverty.

* This is a great example of the massive hypocrisy of recast supporters. The recast companies send out garbage and are given a pass, but they use a few instances of damaged dolls from a legit company as an excuse to steal from them.

 

Still you have to know a lot about dolls when you want to recast them. I had a lot of problem just to resolve how to do the holes in legs, and those people may have a lot of new ideas to share. But the problem is that in China you can't afford to make a mistake; therefore, you just can't come up with your own ideas; you have to do what's already successfull. Even in science - someone discovered DNA sequencing and Chinese scientists began to write articles like "Mouse genom, chicken genom, rat genom...". There might be a great potential; if I ever will starta business I'll look up for talents in China.

Seriously. In Europe (and I think Canada and US will be the same) you can start your own business more or less without the fear for your life. If it fails, you can even use the stories to pick up girls (Like "Oh, you know, I have plenty of ideas for business but the world just don't get me. I'm just too complex for today's people."). In China? Will you sell your kidney after a failed attempt?

Vicemage, I think you are a little bit too judgy. I do not like Chinese copying of any kind because it's the symbol of everything that is wrong with our society - we consume, we dispose and then again and again until we get a glimpse of satisfaction or our planet is destroyed; nevertheless, I don't feel like the right person to judge others. I don't know them, their destiny, their dreams, their families...

I personally have a lot of things made in China: My notebook, some of my clothes, some little electronics... I sadly do eat meat, cheese and drink milk. I have a lot of blood, tears and sweat of animals and even people. I know they live, work and die in terrible conditions and I try to buy the "morally clean" things, sadly I am not still saint enough to judge other people, call them garbage and I think that nobody is.

The whole topic of recasts is sad and frustrating, I personally would be quite disappointed if I would accidentally buy a recast; yet, what is the worst thing that can happen to me? I would have a recast doll. Maybe I would write something really angry on the Internet, so everybody would know that. But guess what. I have a room for myself, I have a nice cozy bed, I have a computer to write my litttanies on, I had the chance to study one of the best universities in Europe. Even those artists who are damaged by recasting don't have to fear they will have to sell their kidneys. If you're lucky enough to be born into the right family, I am sure you will support your favourite artist, you will try to get a legit doll. They are loved, they get all the love here. But the great artists in fact create recast.

Without artists there would be no recasting. I know it's sad, bad, even evil, but guess what - they are so lucky to have a great job and even more - they are successfull and interesting enough to be copied. It's the ultimate compliment for an artist - how else you gain the immortality? I would almost kill for being copied. I sometimes really dream that one day my style of drawing or writing would be so unique that someone sees the potential in it and starts copying it. Sadly, it's still just a dream of a young (wannabe?) artist.

I have a book of all Salvador Dalí's artworks and I spend a lot of hours studying his style. I take part of my inspiration from his work. He's like a surrealistic god to me. But I don't think I'm better than some poor Chinese guy who spends hours copying Dalí's work to make those few extra dollars so he could eat, I was just born on a better place.

Not sorry for a long post, I love discussions, English, art and life.

Have a nice day, wherever you are.

EDIT: For a moment I feared that I'm already off-topic but this is also kind of a sad recast realization...

 

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Love your post, Sirri

You are being a corporate shill, you know. As well as ridiculous. I'm with Vicemage - DONE with you.

 

(I'm not gonna get into things here because internet arguments [and even logical debates] are kind of pointless to me, but I have to point out that recasts are not only made in China [it happens all over the world], and probably aren't made by people struggling just to make ends meet. In order to recast you need at least a base of funds to get your operation off the ground; casting supplies, resin, and a place to work are not cheap, even if they're being skimped on to create a mediocre, "affordable" product. Recasting is not an artist's work; it's theft, not flattery. Please read some of these letters from real, legitimate doll-making companies about recasts. It might be a little eye opening.

If someone truly is an artist, loves dolls [which I personally believe recasters don't; they just want money], and wants to sell dolls, they would attempt to make their own. If they can't afford to do this, then they probably can't afford to recast either.

I highly doubt blatant copying for profit would seem so flattering when the money that copier is making is going straight to their purse instead of yours. These doll companies do this for a living, to make their own money and pay employees that need money just as much as the person next door. It's a shame that our world is so dependent on money and our sometimes cutthroat economy, but this does not give anyone the right to steal other's intellectual property and profits they may gain from their own ingenuity and artistic talents.

So that's just my two cents.)

 

I never miss an opportunity to train my language skills on a place filled with intelligent and educated people!

Kiyoshi, I'm not sure if you fully get the concept of making business in China. If anyone here intends to fight recast or anything else, you need to know the basic filosophy. Know thy enemy, as it's said, the more you know, the better you can fight it. I don't have any information on non-chinese recasters from... I don't know, US, so I'll leave those out. If you make such a huge investment for purchasing the recasting equipment, you can't afford to fail. You must not fail; otherwise, you are finished. Nobody will cooperate with you.

And nobody wants a noname doll from a noname Chinese artist. Everybody wants Chloe, Phonulus, Lilicat kitties... Honestly, how many of you would buy a doll from a company about which nobody heard? So instead of creating with an uncertain result they copy with bigger chance of success.

At first I was rather bored with endless discussions about recasts. I want to find "my" doll and voilà, discussion over the topic whether the recasters should be burned or drawned alive. Extremly annoying. I think there is the difference between being anti-recast and being furious-recast-hater. Because there will be always someone who will buy them - how do you prevent all your relatives from buying one for you as a present? I don't know your experience but I have serious issues just with explaining why I wanna become a vegan. Explaining recasts is the next level. Also many people buy them just because they want to study figure painting, sewing or photography.

You live in a different world. In China and many other poor countries there is no such thing as the intellectual property. It's wild. If you would have to choose between falling asleep hungry and stealing someone's intellectual's property, what would you choose? I would steal. I would rather steal anything rather than working in a sweatshop sixteen hours a day.

Again, not saying I am pro-recast, I'm just trying to explain the Chinese way of doing "business". So if you really want to fight recast, give those people the proper opportunity to do what are they talented for.

I dare you, dear bjd lovers who are more educated and experienced in this matter - go and find unknown Chinese bjd artists, make a list of them and let all people here see it. Show them that they can be appreciated for their talents.

It may sound like sarcasm but it's not. I'm serious. All bjd sites are full of bickering and frankly, have you ever saved a world by arguing?

Little OT: It reminds me of a game here on DoA, Have I ever?

So, have I ever spent a significant amount of time writing about how we should support Chinese artists instead of actually trying to find some of them?

Peace.

 

I really love your way of thinking and I mostly share similar thoughts.

I really would love to know how much the big companies even care for their artists. I know there are companies that are mostly just held by the artist themselves but to be honest a few things I came across in regards with the big companies make me angry.
Not angry about the recasters, but angry about the companies making themselves such an easy target.

For instance badly managed companies with REALLY pricey dolls that somehow even with being one of the big targets of recasting don't seem to be willing to change some of their BAD practices where changing that could earn them so much more solid money and a better reputation.

Let's do really pricey dolls, with almost no choices for skin colors (that vary between every freaking doll released), pop them up on the sale page suddenly after having NOTHING for sale for weeks, limited the order period to two weeks, after that never ever sell that doll again, have a not working mailing system to make sure nobody knows a new doll is released unless the potential customers stalks the page over and over again, don't take blank pictures of the dolls and their faces to make sure nobody has a chance to actually know what they are getting, only do so if asked many many many many times, after that put the pictures somewhere hidden on the companies chaotic site and make sure to don't make any notes about you putting pictures up, refuse combined shipping at any cost, have a customer service with steadily changing people working for you to make extra sure your CS doesn't have the slightest clue about your company / the products you sell, don't sell any kind of replacement parts only if your are being begged many times and if you change your mind about offering replacement parts make them REALLY pricey ... like 30$ + EMS shipping for a teenytiny wristball (also refuse combined shipping at any costs!!!) consider selling replacements parts new for every case ... daily!, make sure to have many quality issues on top of that, like your white skin not always looking the same, even on body parts of the same doll, have manuals shipped with your dolls that are heavily outdated, so that the stringing shown in the manual doesn't match the actual doll you have shipped out. Have like 3 genereations of bodies and make sure no parts are exchangeble between the generations for no particular reasons, don't sell just basic bodies in your store, instead sell them in short events even though many of your dolls are coming with two heads, make sure you need always 90 days to ship out dolls (even just PARTS !) regardless they are only ordered in small quantities and with or without blushing / face up
have no steady seller doll at all

Maybe I should turn this into a 'Guess the company'

I am talking about my favorite company Soom and I am so so so so heartbroken about their dolls being recasted but I hate how like all the effort against if seems to come from the community while they could do so much against it on their behalf.
Their words may sound like they have trouble with recast but their actions say so much different from 'help, we are in trouble'

Their artists are great but their company management sucks in so many ways.

 

The world economy now is awful, and it's terrible that people have such a hard time making ends meet these days; there are people living in severe poverty all over the world and it sucks. There are recasters everywhere too, though, not just in China. And for every recaster in dire need of money, there's one who's just in it for extra money on top of what they're already making bootlegging other products as well. There can't be a pick and choose; "it's okay if you steal and recast, but you can't because you have money already." It sucks, but that's not how the world works. We wish we can fix this, but changing the economy is so so difficult. Recasting is a tiny niche in a huge economic world, and I can't support it in any way. That's just my opinion, of course; not everyone is the same as me, and that's fine. I don't condemn recasts or recast supporters anywhere, and I think most of the dramatic negativity and hate spread about them over the Internet is completely unnecessary, but I can't support it myself. I can't stop it from happening, but my mind won't be changed about not supporting it.

(Also, there are lots of great Chinese BJD companies out there! One of my favorite companies, AkagiDoll, is a China-run company, and they have gorgeous original dolls. I hope to have at least one someday, if not more! My favorite sculpt ever, Dollzone Carter, is made by a Chinese company. There's a list of Chinese BJD companies and dealers on this page, and it's massive. Here's a thread about Chinese doll makers and those who support them. There is definitely a niche for Chinese doll makers in this hobby, and not a small one either! )

 

Always something to learn! The only thing I miss in your contribution is the link to bjd start-up and crowdfunding. I can't tell for ther rest of the world but at least here people are quite afraid of becoming an artist because, obviously, you have to come up with an original idea and be at the right time on the right spot. And copying is deeply rooted in the evolution - almost all evolution in nature are copies of what is already proven good.

But as one of my favourite Czech actors and comedian said (Jan Werich): You can't win the fight against the human stupidity; nevertheless, you can't stop, otherwise it will flood the world. So there will be always someone to copy your work for whichever reason and you can't do almost anything about that. It's sad but we have to deal with it. It's like death, I hate the idea of dying one day but I sadly can't do anything against it. I can paint my portraits all day long and I am still getting older and older.

Now, who gets the book reference above has a good taste in literature.

I would like to find a bjd start-up with a sculpt of my dreams, a beautiful elf with the pretty face like mine, with his or her own dragon... But I guess I'll have to do it on my own... :-)

 

Not only that (and I've seen a ton of love for Chinese dolls!), but every company, Chinese or otherwise, started as an unknown company.* I've seen plenty of companies come up in my time here, I've seen plenty of demand from "unknown companies" that appear here with new items, and I've even ordered them myself. So (not that you made it), the argument that "no one will buy from an unknown company" honestly doesn't hold water with me.

@Sirri, I'm guessing it's a translation issue, but I'm not "judgy" I've just been around for a while now. I've seen the increase in recasts, the loss of companies negatively impacted, the endless excuses made to justify supporting them, and the moral gymnastics involved. And it's tiring having to repeat over and over that recasting is theft. I've seen bootlegs hurt this hobby, I've seen them hurt my other hobbies, and there is no justification that will make me accept hurting artists and this hobby. None. I'm sorry if you think it's judgemental to want to protect a hobby I enjoy so it can continue to grow, but I'm not going to "play nice" when it comes to thieves. If that sounds "judgy" to you, so be it, but I see it as sticking with my morals and ethics.

*except maybe FairyLand, on the technicality that they'd sold through another company before breaking off on their own, but even then, they were "unknown" when they started.

 

It's so sad for the artist whom has been recasted. They spend many times working the project but just stolen by a minute. Also being sell as a cheaper price. I wouldn't buy any recasted doll.

 

Of course that (almost) every famous company started as a unknown company with foggy future. But has anyone has the statistics about how many of them had to end? Based on observation in other fields of art there is more than 90 % of failed projects or those which remained only home made hobbies for a few loyal friends.

Theft is a theft, there surely can't be any discussion.

Ad this buying from unknown artists - if a gave a shill (nice new word, thank you, I did not know this one, hope I used it right!) about what people think about me, I would fear that I will attend some meet up or convention and then someone would brutally bully me because I accidentally bought a recast of some minor sculpt. But fortunately for me and for the peace of my mind, I don't care what most people think and I like believing in people. It's a dangerous sport; however, sometimes even exciting.

In Europe there is a thing called "appropriate defense". That means you can't just shoot anybody who happens to enter your garden, you should be reasonable, when you see that it's just a bunch of kids who want to sleep over there, there is no need for you to shoot them. I think that's the basic philosophy that makes me think about myself in different, hypothetic situations.

Now it really is an off-topic but I hate to cut of my thought-train: Are there any circumstances under which I'd be able to forgive myself killing someone? How would the character based on myseld deal with that? This might be an interesting topic for some literature and story-writing thread. I promise I'll try to find it and do the sirri-riot there.

And even more off-topic: I sometimes steal some little thing when I'm upset. When someone's starting to disappear from my life, I take sort of a reminder from him. I really can't deal with the fact people will just disappear and I will have nothing but a fading memory.

Sorry, I need to write a story. I have great idea for my new character.

Have a nice evening or whatever is it you're just having.