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Should Second-Hand Buyers pay back YOUR shipping?

Aug 10, 2007

    1. I wouldn't do it, but I know that there are some sellers who do. Frankly, it's their right to set the price at whatever they want - the market will either bear it, or it won't. If I don't think an item is worth that price, I don't buy it.

      If the shipping is significant (ie, the shipping for a doll) the seller would be out all the money for shipping by selling it to the buyer at cost - the buyer would have significant savings, unlike if they'd ordered from the company directly. While I do not stand by out and out scalping, trying to recoup a bit of the high shipping costs for dolls themselves doesn't seem too unreasonable.
       
    2. Naturally, it depends on how much you want the item. For some things, I'd send my left kidney via PayPal if I could, so shipping becomes unimportant. But! When shipping is a consideration...

      I agree with this tack. But these days, many people do seem to be demanding complete to-the-penny itemization, and challenge the cost of how much things "deserve" to be. There ARE other indirect/intangible costs that Lizzard just mentioned, like market fluctuations, rarity, & emotional worth. Also consider the cost of things like:

      -The price of good packing materials (bubble-mailer envelopes & oversized boxes aren't all that cheap).
      -The cost of gas to drive to the post office or FedEx shop, if you live in a remote area.
      -The cost of the time you take to prepare, package, and ship the item-- whether you have to drive 30 minutes to the post office, or whether you can walk there but take an hour off your lunch-break to wait in line.​

      And so on. Such incidental charges are called "handling charges", and are lumped into a given cost of "S&H [shipping AND handling]". Doll companies can charge Restock Fees when you return an item, for the inconvenience-- why shouldn't any seller be allowed to include an inconvenience fee for themselves?

      I also agree that it's no crime for anyone to want to get as much money as possible for an item. As long as there's a buyer willing to pay their price, the marketplace is capitalist-Darwinist jungle. Caveat emptor!

      With that argument in place: I don't even sell things online, myself. And, as Constant Buyer, I do examine what the seller charges for shipping. If it seems high to me, I ask them how they figured it. If they have a good explanation, and I believe the explanation, then that's fine by me.
       
    3. I always get a good lol when I see an unlimited doll being sold as on the original site but with a $50 markup. We dictate the selling/buying rules with our wallets, and I know I'm not buying that doll. The original owner paid $50 to have something shipped and the service was performed. The doll was shipped. I'm in effect paying this person for a service that was performed for them.

      Hey, sure, but s/he may be competing with someone who lives around the corner from the post office and can get packing materials from the store the work at, just as an example. There is no rule saying someone has to make back everything on their original purchase, so you can also look at it this way: without charging extra fees the seller makes back the inconvenience costs, but earns $20 less on their doll resale.

      A company may charge an incovenience fee, but an owner re-selling is not a retailer. (Not that companies charge you extra fees for time spent at the PO. That is included in the price!) You call it an inconvenience fee, I call it "nickel and diming". ;)
       
    4. Potayto, potahto. ;D

      Whatever allows the person to get back as much on their purchase as they're trying for. No, there's no rule saying you HAVE to recoup the whole amount you paid; if you're happy with less, then power to you. But there's sure no crime in trying to make it back.

      And if a buyer is going to pass up the sale of a rare secondhand LE doll that they've been wanting, merely because the seller charges them extra for shipping and/or handling... then whose loss is it, for the sake of nitpicking? Your "I won't pay" principles may be intact, but now you ain't got that doll. So it goes.
       
    5. They're allowed to, sure, DoA doesn't police the marketplace saying, "NO, you're scalping/overcharging/etc., I delete your thread! >:O" We're allowed to sell things here for whatever we want. I could buy a twenty dollar pair of standard shoes from a company and start a thread selling them for eight hundred dollars if I wanted to (I wouldn't). Doesn't mean anyone would buy them--quite the opposite. ;)

      However, when I buy a doll for 600 dollars + 100 dollars shipping, it does not mean my doll is worth 700 dollars. Price of item + shipping from company to seller + shipping to me = I'm looking for somewhere else to buy, since then I'm getting a used item for more than it would cost me to buy new from the company.
       
    6. I would never add the cost of the shipping I paid to a doll I'm selling.

      But of course, like others have said, the seller has the right to do it. It's our choice to buy from them or not.

      I would think twice to buy from a person who charges it though, unless it's something I really really want!
       
    7. I think it sort of depends on the situation and what the item is. I can understand wanting to recoup costs on something that had expensive shipping to begin with. If I really, really wanted a limited outfit for my doll and had to jump on it right then and pay $20 for shipping, but then discovered it didn't fit, I would probably factor in a *part* of that cost. Maybe an extra ten dollars or so. Same thing for a doll. I certainly wouldn't expect to make back everything I spent though. I consider shipping a cost that you sometimes have to eat.

      On the less expensive things, especially things that are already second-hand or were purchased in a group order. . . there's no reason to expect a new buyer to pay back your shipping costs. If I see someone selling something I want, but for more than the retail price and it's still in stock, I'd rather join in a group order and buy it brand new and save a few bucks. There's no reason why I should pay extra to cover their original shipping costs, plus shipping to me.

      Personally, the idea of having to take a $10-$20 loss makes me less likely to impulse buy, because if I don't like it, I'm out that much more money to buy something I *do* like.
       
    8. I am a pretty frequent seller and buyer, who of course loses a considerable bit of money on paying for shipping in the long run. However, as my answer to the original question tends toward "Of course not, why the hell would they?" obviously the "it affects me negatively, therefore I'm a'ginnit" factor doesn't play here. ^^
      In my view, the market doesn't accurately self-regulate to the point a lot of posters say it does. I find it doesn't reflect much but the extent to which certain people (usually there'll be at least 1 in the thousands of people checking the marketplace, the odds aren't that bad) will compromise (or in some cases, the extent of their gullibility) to get that bauble they want. I remember when I first discovered these beauties there was no eluts.com, and though I eventually bit the bullet and did it, it seemed like a giant fearful hassle to order through a shopping service, figure out the as yet unknown ins and outs of bank transfers, sit on my hands waiting through uncertain ship periods and bare bones communications (damn but that was a long seven weeks ><), and trust them Krazy Furriners to send me my stuff knowing I had nothing in the way of attorney funds or knowledge of international law to stop them from scamming me. Now I am better informed and more confident (and no I didn't really think the furriners part), but I can certainly see people, noobs or otherwise, willing to pay out more not to have to deal with crap like that, or for instant gratfication to the tragically impatient, or for whatever added sense of security they get from dealing with people closer to them or who speak their language, or for a bunch of other reasons. Great.
      Does that make the seller's breakdown sensical? I posit no. A post a little bit further back put that part of things pretty well: Yeah, you paid x for shipping. And it was shipped. And you reaped the benefits of that cost already (receiving your package). I receive nothing for paying that cost for you. Yes, maybe it'd be more if you were that foreign company. But you aren't (This is grantedly leaving out group order hosts and shopping services - focusing on people selling their own things that they bought for themselves and decided they don't want). And while I could be totally alone in it, I personally go by the maxim, if I can't claim it makes sense with a straight face, I don't try. People can sell their dolls with a fat markup and shipping on top of that (or try to), whatevs. But it's the painstaking "that's more than I paid with shipping" exactism that gets me. Even for people I like (and it doesn't make me like them any less as people, just as businessmen) I mentally roll my eyes and play the world's smallest violin.

      I will still admit that if someone is doing it and I want the item badly enough I'll buy it anyway, but very seldom does that happen, as seeing that really is annoying and these items are not my sustenance or anything (and I'm lucky to like non-limited sculpts), so I'm hoping these people will realize that it's probably costing them sales somewhere along the line to word things that way (same with people who go "4% paypal plz!") I'm happy to say I'm not currently at a point where losing a few bucks here and there is the end of the world, but I'm not here to judge who else is, whether they say so or not, so I'd rather they leave me out of it. I'm not going to smile benevolently, go "ohhhh, ok then" and open my wallet to the one person who "has" to make back every expenditure, we all have bills to pay.

      The meat of my blathering: while it is certainly within a seller's right to do, I find it utterly nonsensical. I have yet to hear of an explanation that does not boil down to "because I just want the money," or "if you don't like it, leave" - which are really not explanations at all - and rather explores, in a compelling sense, what exactly that really has to do with the buyer. I'd rather get a firm price (whether it's exact store price or more or preferably less : D), no sob stories, no fuss no muss, that doesn't imply I'm an idiot who can't discern the value of things for herself. "Oh look, the seller paid to get their own purchase in the mail! I must be getting an amazing discount at only 130% retail!" *PAIZ*

      (Yes, I do realize that once in a while, there's a company that rapes with their ship rates to the point where 130% retail really is an amazing discount. But I can figure that out for myself.)
       
    9. While I am against scalping - some of the reasoning against recouping full costs of a doll or limited item seems faulty to me.

      What about dolls whose shipping cost is included in their price...? (CustomHouse and Elfdoll are two companies I can think of offhand that do this.)

      Are you obliged by this reasoning to knock the doll's price down $45 - $55?

      Or what if you bought a doll before the yen/won dipped and your full cost plus shipping is less than the doll costs new...?

      Are you obliged then to offer up a substantial savings to someone at your own cost...?

      If you were buying something unlimited from overseas, is it really wrong to buy two, and offer one up at a slightly increased cost to help cover your shipping...? (Sort of a pre-emptive group order?) Especially if it would cost the buyer less than if he ordered the item alone himself...? To me, this would be as though you had participated in a group order together - but one where the item was safely in hand.
       
    10. Sellers can set their own price, if a buyer thinks its too high
      they don't have to buy it. No ones got a gun to their head
      saying buy it or else!

      I can especially see why some sellers would, if the item takes 3 or more months to arrive, and they take one look it wasn't what they wanted, thats an awful long wait, and if I had the extra $$ I might be willing to pay a bit extra to have it "now", my time is certainly worth something.
       
    11. I think it depends on the circumstances. I live in Australia and if the doll is there and you don't have to wait months, sometimes you're happy to pay. I find the automatic assumption that you will get your money plus shipping back is annoying, but I'm seeing it less and less. The fact is that just listing a doll no longer means that you will sell it. As a buyer, I'm aware that people don't always describe their dolls and the mods they've done to them. If you look on ebay, dolls are selling for $100-$200 less than people pay for them. Of course, certain brands and dolls sell for similar or more money ie Volks, Luts. At the end of the day, people have to decided what they want to pay for the doll. I was interested in a Musedoll Ciel, emailed a seller and was quoted a price $200 above shipping and normal cost. What? Sorry, I'm not interested, I'll wait for a new one thanks. At the end of the day, it's the Buyer's choice.
       
    12. ... First off... the only reason i'm posting is becuase this has got to be the biggest LOAD I've ever heard of.

      If anyone's asking a buyer to compensate the original owner's shipping costs....then i have some choice words for that buyer. It's they're fault they made a hasty descion, or 'has to sell it for something important' and paid 60 bucks shipping. it is NOT the second-hand buyers responsibility. That's the original owners burden to bare.
       
    13. Then again, this all flies out the window when it's a rare or limited item/doll. I haven't seen one Unoa Lusis or Sist that hasn't sold for less than $800 on the Marketplace, usually for $1000 or more, yet the pre-order was $495 including shopping fees, shipping to the USA and a large bust option! If someone here has sold one for the purchase price, I'm really sorry that I missed it, but I'm sure it was snapped up instantly. Even the faceplates go for considerably more then people paid for them, even when they received them the day they sold them. Bermanns are even worse.

      So, you're paying for the person's luck and timing to be able to purchase at the lower price. I've bought and sold "free" heads on the same basis, and paid hundreds extra for a LE I wanted. You can ask what you want...if the market will support it, otherwise you'll be bumping that FS thread forever. That's more major than just charging shipping, but it's a case where it's all factored in.

      I know of a non-dolls forum that capped the prices one could ask to the retail price + a small percentage even for the rare items. What happend? All the sales of rare ones went to eBay or Livejournal, which made it harder to find them.
       
    14. As I'm only new to the BJD community the only example I can think of is an ADG Blythe that was seling on Australian ebay recently for a ridiculously high price. I personally just found it amusing that the seller actually thought that they could get that price for it. There were a few Blythe collectors though who seemed to get personally offended by this (sorry girls if you are reading this :) ) and even started sending baiting questions to the seller (albeit very funny questions) about the doll.

      I am still not used to waiting 6 or more weeks for a doll so I guess I would be one of those people that would weigh up paying that extra money for the convenience - maybe I wouldn't pay it, but at least I can make the choice.

      I think about items that I buy everyday where I know they have added on the shipping cost - you can't really escape it. I guess the difference is that people aren't openly stating it.
       
    15. I look at it differently than most people. Rather than "why should I eat your shipping costs", I ask "why should the seller take a loss to save me money"? I think a good situation is when the doll price is set in the middle. For example, using made up round numbers.
      Say original shipping on the doll was $60.
      Because we're now in the same country, shipping to me will be $20.
      If the seller raises the doll's price by $20, then I pay $40 total. I've saved $20 over what I would pay from the company. The seller has gotten back $20 of their shipping loss. Sounds fair to me.
       
    16. Agreed!

      For me, I wanted this wig SO SO bad, and nothing else, so I bit the pricey bullet and paid like $30 for shipping. If I would sell that wig I would bump it up $15, not $30, cause that is fair, but that is just me.

      Some of us need to get it all back, and if you want the item bad enough, let's face it, you know youre gonna get it heh-heh.

      If you feel it's unfair, then don't buy it.

      OR you could see if they could come down on the price.
       
    17. This isn't really a debatable issue seeing as a seller can set their prices at whatever they please... they're not forcing anyone to buy what they are selling, and as a buyer you could always attempt to negotiate with the seller for a better price (as long as they're open to negotiation, anyway). It is, however, one of my pet peeves. Nothing gets my gears grinding like seeing something I want with a $30 markup and the seller thinking that they've got a great deal for you because they paid suchandsuch in shipping and Y!J fees.

      I don't know about other people, but I shop on DoA so I don't have to pay outrageous shipping from Asia and Y!J fees. And let's face it, this stuff is second-hand. If you're selling it, you're more than likely going to take a loss because people are looking for a good deal, and it's much more likely to move off the market if you sell it for the asking price on the website or less. So why, as a seller, would you shoot yourself in the foot by marking it up the cost of shipping?

      So yeah the seller can charge whatever they want, but that doesn't mean it makes very much sense to me... and personally I won't buy anything with a huge mark-up like that because I think it's ridiculous. I will either buy it new from the site, find something else, or wait for a better deal.
       
    18. As far as i see it the seller can ask for the higher price if they want but if I realize that's what they've done I'm not going to be buying from them.

      I don't personally like the idea of someone trying to present an item as being more valuable simply because the shipping to them cost them a certain amount that I now have to pay for.
       
    19. This sums up my personal opinion pretty well. I don't think I've ever considered charging a buyer for my shipping. But as far as a seller having the *right* to, yeah of course they do. Jenny Nemesis said it best with her capitalist-darwinist quip.

      I prefer to know I've done the fair thing according to my moral compass, but everybody has their own.

      by the way this seems like a very fair compromise you've proposed. I hope this will appeal to some of those who just can't seem to see the justice of eating your own shipping costs.
       
    20. When I sell small items such as clothes, wigs, etc, I don't factor in what I paid for shipping, just the price of the item. Usually I buy those types of items as part of an order, so I may pay $30 shipping, but that's for 5 or so items.

      When it comes to selling dolls, I think of the original shipping as an import fee (if purchased from over seas), so I may tack on a bit of it, but I always think about added value for the customer. So usually the final price including shipping to the new buyer is right around what I paid (or what it would cost from the manufacturer).
      For example I sold a practically new MSD Ken. The buyer could have just bought one from the website, but she chose to buy mine because instead of an unassembled and unpainted kit she received an assembled doll complete with face-up for the same price (with added extras). Now if I was selling the doll as arrived, as a blank kit, I would only ask the price of the kit because there is no added value for the customer, so why would they want to buy it for more?

      The bottom line is people can charge what ever they wish, and no one wants to lose money, but shipping is the price you've got to pay for being in a world wide hobby.
      If you can make it back, that's wonderful, but don't expect it for every little item you resell (especially if the item is used).

      Cheers,
      Sera~