The company goes bad - can you still enjoy their dolls?

Stella M, you're so funny. And I feel exactly the same way about Rainman. I agree with your take on it.

Choushizen, I understand how you feel about your art, but something we have to accept is that we can't control how others will respond to what we do. C'est la vie.

Masala - hear, hear. You make a lot of sense.

A word to Darkstar and the others still smarting from CCC's treatment. I for one believe trust is a very precious commodity and only give it to those who earn it. I have in my life been told that I can be harsh, but I know my own heart - and I know I decide who is safe to be around those I love.

There is no way to totally remove emotion from the picture when you are involved in an endeavor you love. That's just illogical. But the emotions you feel have worth and you have to decide where you are going to expend them. You get the dolls to bring a little light into your life and the lives of those around you. The doll is just a vector. You can build a crib with a plank of wood or use said plank to stove someone's head in. It's our intentions and actions that count. If someone chooses to jerk you around, as long as you are upset about it - they have power over you, and in some sense are still feeding off of you. (The term is "emotional vampires" and we have all met one or two). Let it go; if the dolls show up, wonderful, have fun with them, or sell them on. If they don't, fine. Just realize that your negative emotions are hurting yourselves, and perhaps benefiting someone you really don't want to be helping.

 

For myself personally, it would all come down to how a company handles themselves after a debacle, and what the situation actually was. Poor customer service can be improved with honest effort, but a reputation tarnished by copying or infringing on another artist it something else entirely. It would take a hell of a lot of work and effort and honest dedication to be able to wipe something like that off of the company name, and I doubt a company could ever really be free of the label copying carries no matter how hard they try. The emotion of hurt and betrayal is not one that is easily shaken by any means.

I haven't learned enough about the goings on at CCC - this thread is actually the fisrt time I've heard about it - but I think I'd be completely hurt in such a situation. A lot of CCC's customers have said they felt they had a connection to Charles because he was active with his customers, conversing with them directly about their dolls, and to have someone pretty much take you and your money hostage - personal problems or not - would sting something fierce. I am not very much in to tinies, but I've always had a soft spot for adorable little anthros, and if Charles can earn back the trust he seemed to work so hard to forge it may better my opinion of him. It all depends on how the situation continues to play out. For anyone still stuck in that situation, you definitely have my sympathies, and I hope you get your little ones soon.

In the case of Lady Saiyuki, her sculpts were never to my tastes, and to be honest the evidence against her would have been enough that I would never, ever invest in her business in any way. What made the entire situation worse, as has been pointed out by many much earlier in this thread, was the poor attitude she displayed when faced with the accusations themselves. Hormonal or not (she was either pregnant or very recently had been at the time, I believe?), you are a business as well as an artist and are expected to remain professional at all times. Name-calling and sand-throwing, as if you were a preschooler scorned by the school bully, is anything but professional. I think anyone would have been hurt if they felt the accusations were unfounded (may I point out, I highly doubt they were from what I've seen, but I have been wrong before), but to resort to pettiness in your own defence is cowardice fishing for sympathy. She would have had sympathy from supporters even outside of her community if she had maintained her composure when she attempted to defend herself. Now I can only think of her as a spoiled child who couldn't get her way.

Elfdoll was a company I had always admired, and the epic temper-tantrum that closed their site to new members was something I found rather surprising. I'm still not 100% sure what caused it all (if someone could let me know I would much appreciate it), and though it seems to have simmered down quite a lot, I still stop and think about it often. I own an Elfdoll myself; mine was purchased second-hand, however. Rainman is incredibly talented, and I always thought that he let his business associates have too much control over the way things were done with his work. I'm not sure if that's just an idea I let settle in my head or if it has any foundation in fact, it's just the feeling I got from a lot of what went on. Still, I hope Elfdoll reopens public membership to their site - limiting how many people are allowed to buy direct from the company is a shame, more people should have access to something with that much care put into it.

In the case of Dollshe versus Dollmore, I didn't follow either side very closely at all, so I can't say much. I still purchase clothing from Dollmore, but the idea of it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth in regards to their dolls. They're beautiful, but the what-if factor keeps me from purchasing one. Mr Dollshe (from what I know) may have been able to handle himself better, but the fact that he reinvented his creations as a result of the cenario is at least promising to me as an artist as proof that he is at least leaving the situation behind him.

Dollzone is one of the few companies who were rightfully accused of copying sculpts that I think has done an amazing job of rebuilding their reputation. Rather than change their company name to avoid the stigma, they worked hard to prove that they could be their own creative influence, and their dolls are stylized in such a way that you know exactly where it came from when you see one. Their sculpting abilities have also drastically improved over the years, as I see it from their newer 65cm line. I was not really a fan of Dollzone's sculpts until they came out, and I seriously considered getting one for a while because I liked them so much. The effort I find obvious in Dollzone's rebuilding is something I think has pulled them out of most of the shadow of their past mistakes, and I definitely give them kudos for that. I don't think they'll ever be completely free of the shadow of the incident, but they have done an excellent job proving that they deserve the respect of their customers once again.

Overall, I think each incident that has, and unfortunately will occur would have to be something I judged individually, and something everyone who collects anything at all would have to take into consideration whenever it occurred.​

 

The CCC ordeal makes me feel so sad every time I read about it. It's hard enough scrounging and saving for a doll you actually receive. I don't think I would buy a CCC even second hand because I'd feel guilty having one and knowing that other people didn't get theirs. -_-

And Elfdoll. >> Call it emotion or whatever, but I doubt I'd even buy one second-hand either because of their closed-off site. It's stupid, it seems, but I won't buy a their doll even if it's pretty for that reason. It makes me feel slighted, and I don't want a reminder of that slighted feeling sitting on my dresser staring at me.

And hey, I didn't even know that Dollzone has a tarnished past. XD Apparently they've done a good job of bouncing back!

 

I didn't know about the CCC problem until reading it here. A good thing I found out because I kinda had my eye on one of those little piglets. And, no I don't think I would be able to enjoy their dolls if if something like that would happen to the company.

 

deleted post,

 

I guess it depends on whether a person values their doll intrinsically or instrumentally. Even then, a person has to define his or her value on the doll. I can say if I value my doll purely intrinsically, then I wouldn't have a hard time enjoying my dolls because I value them because of the fact that they are the way they are. However, if I value my doll instrumentally in which i enjoy my dolls not only for what they are in the way they are but also because of their monetary worth on the second hand market or worth to other people, then I would have a hard time valuing these dolls especially when the company has such a horrible reputation that the doll won't sell on the aftermarket.

Edit: This is just my opinion, I don't want to impose this on others.

 

It really depends on the circumstances of the company going bad and whether or not it directly affected me, as said before in the thread. In the case of something like the CCC debacle, I would probably feel quite sad when looking at one of his dolls if I had one, owing to the fact that what he's done is wrong and he's not even apparently making a real attempt to fess up and fix it. But in the case of, say, Dollzone, where they DID admit they'd done wrong and still bounced back from it and fixed it, then I can really respect that and love their dolls just like any other. (DZ Feilian is my first doll, anyways!)

As some people have said--it's not the doll's fault, but it really makes you hold the entire company/artist group in a different light, which is really a shame. Charles' dolls are so adorable and I have a Dollshe on my wishlist, but it's sad that those companies (and not only those companies mind, it's obvious from this thread!) are tarnished because of one action.

Tl;dr: Yes, I would still love the doll, but the company itself might leave a sour taste in my mouth.

 

Ok, here is the prime example of why people should not cloud their judgement with something they heard from somewhere or other, in other words what they really have no knowledge of. LordBlumiere, wasn't it Dollshe vs. Dollmore?
It's kind of shocking Catsick that you are willing to "forgive" CCC their indescretions which in some terms would be called accepting payment for undelievered goods, aka, stealing, but you are ready to condemn LS forever for being nasty. I am no detective but I suspect you are a woman, as women are always ready to throw another woman under the bus but just look the other way when a man does something wrong. Wrong. Clearly wrong. It's wrong to steal. It's not nice to throw a tantrum but it's not a Cardinal Sin ie. one that breaks one of the original moral codes of our society. For what CCC did he could face criminal action. For what LS did she just has to live with the cruelty of people who are ready to ruin her with no evidence. None. Whatsoever.

Oh and back to beating that Elfdoll horse again, membership is and will be again open to the public. It is not a private group, they accept anyone, you just have to sign up at the posted times. Which are not like 6 hours in the middle of the night, but weeks if I remember correctly. What do you really care about why they choose to do it that way? Because they had arguments with thier dealers? What, are you choosing sides? Do you know what went on? Oh right, you said you didn't. I can understand disappointment, darn, I missed the sign up, I'll have to get the next one, but that would be like me being mad at Volks because I didn't win a limited Dolpa item. Without merit.

 

Catsick, like Stella Maris, I am really confused at your leniency for Charles of CCC, seemingly because he creates "adorable little anthros" and yet Lady Sayuki (whose sculpts were never to your tastes) is offered up for Tar and Feathers because she had a tantrum! The Rep for Elfdoll also had a huge public tantrum and yet they are also let off the hook. You seem to apportion blame based on whether or not you like the sculpts!

Forget Elfdoll, I don't get that "controversy", one was going through a divorce and the other was pregnant. I think if someone accused me of copying when I was sure I hadn't (Hormonal or otherwise) I might throw the odd mega-watt tantrum too. Naturally I would try and calm down when it came time to face the public but we are all different. I haven't seen all the evidence in either case, but put under pressure people react in very unpredictable ways... Lady Sayuki was in public meltdown and Charles of CCC may well be suffering some kind of mental breakdown, perhaps he just can't face what he has done, who knows... give them both a break on that count... BUT...

and it's a BIG but... Charles owes an awful lot of people hard cash for goods they never received. Cute as they are, his lil' piggies went to market and defrauded a lot of DOA members (and lord knows who else?) out of their savings and that needs sorting out pronto. Even if the guy is having problems he must have friends or business associates who should be working to remedy that situation ASAP, otherwise it seems calculating and criminal.

So, yeah, they are super cute little piggies but I wouldn't want one until this mess is resolved because (hypothetically) posting pics of a CCC doll and yakking about how lucky I am to have one right now (I don't BTW) would seem like rubbing salt in a lot of people's fresh wounds.

 

And here's a prime example of a bus that needs to be backed up a little. As a woman who has never thrown another woman under any sort of hypothetical bus for a man, I found that offensive and not particularly on topic.

Look - and this isn't just aimed at you - I've been on this forum for a couple of years, and I've seen posts from people saying they would never buy from Volks because of the broken knees issue, and people who still haven't forgiven Dollzone, and so on and so forth. I will not speak to the details of CCC or LS because I have not followed these cases, but I will not begrudge a single person their reasons for not liking a company. Simple disappointment and irritation are perfectly okay reasons to not want to buy from a company. This is all for a purely personal hobby/fandom, a pursuit of enjoyment and of art. If something leaves a bad taste in your mouth, why should you keep eating it?

To get back to the original point of this thread, if the company did something that crossed my own personal moral boundaries, I would have difficulty enjoying the doll.

 

I have a felix doll i bought last april, during their event. I adore my tiny boy and althought i feel sorry for those that purchased later and are still waiting on dolls, I still adore mine. My oldest has one she bought in august of last year as well prior to the problems. my youngest spent all her christmas money on one in january of this year she arrived as well but luckily all ours were purchased from karin at ajumpama usa and she is great.

now on the other hand would i buy another now that the company has gone through all this ..... possibly off the marketplace but not new, my trust is just not there like it was but then again i saw one on the market place like a minute after it was posted last week for like $65 and could have snagged it but thought meh! as did my oldest daughter who at one point wanted a twin for her lil girl and it was that sculpt, sadly i would rather save up and get a puki, i think no less of my felix doll nore for my daughters however it has tainted me from buying from them again, perhaps in the future i might feel different towards them but for now i don't see buying from them.

my oldest daughter wanted an if so badly jointed or non-jointed she even had a lil figure some one she has traded with made out of sculpy to resemble ironically not knowing she liked if in a box of other stuff that came with her trade. she loved it as a place holder for a real one, her little sister apparently decided to play with it left it on a lower shelf or it fell down and one of her puppies destroyed it she was crushed and so upset.

 

Disir2K, I think that was what I was getting at. In most ways I don't think I confuse art with the artist (ie Gauguin was a cad, doesn't make his paintings any less beautiful) but time has to pass.

I wasn't personally involved with what's happening with CCC, but reading those threads is heart rending and it really puts me off those dolls right now. I think even if the company started up again I would be hugely mistrustful of this guy in particular and wouldn't want to give him my money. In a year or so maybe those pigs and critters will regain their appeal, but right now, for me they are tainted by his actions.

 

I almost wonder if the question is less “If the company goes bad, can you still enjoy their dolls?” and more “Will doll fandom allow you to still enjoy your dolls?” I think if you have a doll, and you want to squee about it, unless you’re particularly thick skinned, it’s difficult for the love you feel towards that doll to remain untarnished if there’s a particularly strong online atmosphere of (exaggerating here): “Oh, it’s immoral to buy from that company because of their poor customer service/because they bootlegged a doll ten years ago/etc, and anyone who buys from them isn't someone I want to associate with.”

But then, with the exception of recent bootlegging, or obvious nasties such as sweatshops or poor labour conditions, I don't see my doll shopping in terms of morals. If a company has bad customer service, I buy from the marketplace or via an alternative route. I guess see my doll shopping as buying things I like, rather than as an active attempt to support artists or small businesses. *shrugs* YMMV.

 

timid, I am sorry you were offended, but I am offended by people who as I have said before jump to convict before they have proper/any evidence of wrongdoing. I am offended by the mentality of people who insist on acting like sheep, "oh somebody said something bad, well I can't think for myself so I'll just agree"
And maybe off topic but I envy the world where you live where women are not catty, mean spirited and obnoxious. In my life I have experienced the majority of pain that I have known from other women. I have very few female friends for this reason. Not none, as I don't believe all women are like this, just the majority. That I have known. So I am just giving you the life experience that I have had, being as I have traveled all over the world, living and working in many places, for the fifty years I have been on it. I don't proffer my opinion to offend, just hopefully to make someone else think. And it's just my opinion, don't get hurt feelings.

 

hmmm i haven't had this happen to me either because i bought both of my girls from reputable places but i see where you are coming from. i think i would mostly be worried about what other ppl thought whether they would point out that my doll came from 'that company.' but regardless i don't think i would ever be able to part with my girls.

 

All of these companies were "reputable" at the time of purchase......... it became a problem after the orders were made.
Hope noone would willingly buy from someone going thru major problems and being aware of them.

MM

 

There's a distinct difference between knowing someone [personally] that you do business with, and having a professional relationship with a company you purchase from. Ordering a doll from ANY company and not receiving it is devastating. But when the lines are blurred - in regards to Charles and other single artist company owners like him... The betrayal feels closer to home because that creator had direct and indirect contact with you.

I absolutely do not condone copying dolls, nor do I own any, or know of anyone who does. That being said, I believe in facts - not speculation. And I need proof before I tie someone to a pyre for burning. --- I'd hate to imagine how many doll owners would have been affected, if companies like Luts, Dollmore & Dollzone had become inaccessible here on DoA or anywhere, due to charges pegged against them for copying others - either at their inception or at any other time.

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head (for lack of a better clichè). Notice I preface this with "I think" because at no point would I expect anyone to think the same way I do. I come from a hobby where people will make fun of what you collect or begrudge you an auction win (where they feel you "stole" the item from them). Worst is how they behave if you should be fortunate enough to have kind friends who randomly give you a beautiful piece from their collection. I think it can ruin your enjoyment, you feel like you can't showcase your new item as you feel it deserves. What I have done in that case is pull away from the online community of that particular fandom.

So yes, to me it can be a case of fandom not allowing you to enjoy your dolls as much as a company going bad. As long as you have a legitimate doll that you love it's not really anyone else's place to make you feel bad about your doll. Whether the company going bad matters to you and your enjoyment of their dolls is your decision. As I stated before, for me, it depends on the circumstances.

 

No kidding. Or threatening to destroy them (perhaps the most over-the-top absurdity I've ever read anywhere).

 

And you come from the same hobby as I do. You know if you keep your collection private there are howls of outrage, "how dare you not share?!" I haven't explored all facets of this hobby in depth but I've seen a little of the attitude popping up when someone doesn't post photos of their dolls. So I can see how others' perceptions of what makes a "bad" company might drive people underground and not share photos of their dolls. Even if I don't want to buy from a certain company for whatever reason it doesn't mean I begrudge anyone owning or enjoying those dolls, not even if they were from a "bad" company.