Thoughts on a guy doll having breasts?

Just realize this can work both ways. Yes, I can understand how annoying it can be to see a transgendered doll that fits in your list.

However, getting such things "out in the open" can do wonders for awareness. Most people seem to be OK with genderless doll bodies. And have you seen the BDSM gear Dollmore sells? Yes, anything can be stylized/trivialized. But simply getting these normally taboo topics out there and showing that they're not bad/creepy/wrong is, to me, a good thing.

 

Transgender, Intersexed, and Homosexual people are minorities. As much consideration should be given to these groups as you would any other minority. You may say "it's just a doll" - but when you are posting pictures of a doll that perpetuates harmful stereotypes, you are doing harm. Whenever you create - if it's a book, a movie, a photograph - you need to consider how you are impacting minorities, ESPECIALLY if you are part of the majority in your culture.

 

Stella Maris, just a note on terminology - a transgender male ("trans man") is someone who identifies as male, although was assigned female at birth. A transgender woman ("trans woman") is someone who identifies as female but was assigned male at birth. A transvestite is a term to describe crossdressing males, although it's considered outdated and somewhat derogatory to some, so it's preferable to just call someone a crossdresser.

Also, for cirquemom and others wondering about using the term "tranny" - it's a term that some trans people find hurtful and derogatory and GLAAD (Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation) lists it under their glossary of defamatory language. If your trans friend uses the word, that doesn't mean that it's ok for a cisgender person to use it - I'd compare it with a gay man referring to himself as a fag, versus a straight person doing so.

To learn more about transgender terminology, here's a link to a glossary on GLAAD'S website.

QFE.
Kiyono, I'm glad you brought this up since it's an important point^_^

 

It's not my cup of tea, but it wouldn't bother me.
It's their doll. They can do what they please.

 

Hey Jess, I personally know quite a few cross-dressers, who call themselves trannies, transvestites and other terms that I probably can't use here. It is not my intention to be derogatory. I think in the actual community there may not be an official terminology list, and we are not as PC amongst ourselves.
That noted, I do not personally know any women who cross dress as men, only men who cross dress, are transitioning or partially transitioned, or live as women.

 

But I personally don't see anyone doing that. I tend to agree with Ostrich that when you take a subject and put it out in the open, and say here this is okay, there's nothing wrong with it, it eventually puts people less on edge, and you now have a topic for discussion. It's when you have people walking on egg shells for fear of offending someone that you have unnecessary tension. People not exploring creative ideas because someone might get the wrong impression or become offended by the subject matter.

 

You said everything I wanted to, but mine came out more "ASDNHGIAWEHTIAWHEIRHAIHGINAEIRT!!!!!! WHARRGARBLE!". Thank you.

 

Thanks for your reply Stella Maris^_^ In all the trans communities I've been a part of, and from the literally hundreds of trans people I've talked to, the consensus is that it's alright if you're trans to call yourself a "tranny", but coming from a cisgendered person it's problematic at best and derogatory at worst (and if I've incorrectly assumed that you're cis, my apologies). Like I said, it's like a gay man calling himself a fag versus a straight person doing so. I know the word tranny doesn't have negative connotations for every trans person, but for many it has been used as a slur, and as a way to dehumanize them, so it can be triggering to hear. Since it's upsetting to so many, I figure why not just refer to someone as being trans? It's more respectful and just as convenient

 

Hey Jess, your supposition is correct. I have actually not heard the term "trans", I'll have to investigate that.
I do agree with other posters, by depicting dolls as "trans" or in other ways not specifically male or female I think it does help in the quest to break down the taboo walls, although much of the titillation in anything comes from taboo, and although I know people do go through personal torment in their lives due to issues surrounding homosexuality and/or transvestism or cross-dressing, it is also a visual or mental stimulant in many circumstances.
What I am trying to say is, it can be very sexy as well.

 

I have. But, we are talking theoretical in the thread, and not about specific examples on DOA. People in this thread have said it shouldn't matter, because their dolls aren't real, they are a fantasy. That's actually a typical "it's not prejudiced" response to minority depictions in TV shows, movies, and books. The truth is, fictional representations DO matter.

Example of a Stereotype: Handicap person has special powers.
This is a fictional stereotype that handicapped people find harmful. Whenever you see someone in popular culture who is handicapped, they almost ALWAYS have some kind of magical power to compensate. It wouldn't matter if accurate depictions of handicapped people were common and the stereotype was rare. The reason it matters is because it's the overwhelming presentation of handicapped people. Link with more info I recommend reading: http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/04/05/let-me-tell-you-all-about-my-disability-super-powers/

I think that intersex people are much less represented than handicap people, and the stereotypes are not fair. Intersex people deal daily with rude questions and incorrect assumptions. If they were well represented with positive examples, it might not matter. But they aren't. People have nothing but suspicion and discomfort about these people. About the only time you see them is in fantasy literature - where they are presented in a grossly inaccurate way. If that is the only way they are presented, that tends to be the way people think about them. So making an inaccurate "fantasy" doll that "doesn't reflect" reality may be what you want, but if you do that you're repeating the same stereotypes that are already in existence - which is sadly the only representation this group has. How can you say that isn't harmful to a person's development, to never see themselves represented, except as a freak?

In addition, this "freak" perception causes adults to decide to operate on their small children to make them "normal" - and the children never really get a chance to decide what they want for themselves. That is how our perceptions hurt real people. Another Link I recommend about this issue: http://intersexandthecity.blogspot.com/2009_10_01_archive.html

 

I take this to mean that your original question pertains to boys who have girl bodies as a matter of size and not because they do have breasts? I've seldom seen boy BJDs of smaller build or stature, and if the character has a smaller build than sometimes a girl body is the only way to meet the desired height requirements. The fact that it has "girl bits" is only incidental, and might not have anything to do with the character. I'm a modder and have no problem altering my dolls, but the thought scares most people and they're rather leave the breasts on than risk ruining an expensive doll they love.

I think it's more of a convenience of size, not of gender. I had this problem with one of my boys, who is supposed to be sort of a runt, and there were times I considered getting him a girl body if only because all the boy bodies I looked at were too tall or too muscular! It had nothing to do with the breasts or vulva, just the overall size and shape of the body.

 

One of my girls has a "boy's" head that looked so elegantly feminine that I found it troubling to be intended to be male. The doll is a girl, regardless of what the maker thought of the head. However, I would think that dolls would follow the general populace, and some guys are not comfortable as guys, ditto for girls, why not transgender dolls? It takes all kinds to make a world, whether human or doll.

 

Trans/transgendered are current appropriate and polite terms to use for someone who feels they do not fit in well with the gender they were assigned at birth, and this can mean anything from someone who feels a bit different from their birth sex and might make a few lifestyle or clothing changes to accommodate their feelings, to someone who has transitioned physically to change their gender (also called a transsexual), to someone who feels they don't fit into the gender binary at all... The terms transman (for female to male folk) and transwoman (for male to female) can also be appropriate, but it's always best to ask if you aren't certain which term someone prefers, as everyone has their own preferences. Some trans folk just prefer to be called men or women, some prefer no gendered words be used to describe them...

I think it is so sad when this happens... Hearing stories of intersexed people who had a gender 'chosen' for them that they aren't comfortable with break my heart. I can't imagine what that's like, to have a parent/s force that upon you...

I deal with negative stereotypes about being gay often, and I'm hurt often by people who've only heard of gay guys as being a bunch of negative things... Like we're after little boys or can 'inflict' gayness on others when they learn about us, or that we all sleep around and have AIDS...

Fortunately I haven't encountered any negative stigma in the BJD community yet, but every community has people across all spectrums I know.

 

I have a lot of trans friends - transmen and transwomen, a couple who are androgynes, some only just starting to transition, others who are post-op. Several are transgender activists. I am far too aware of their issues to feel comfortable with the thought of having a trans doll character; I would be too concerned my friends might think I was trivialising an issue that can often mean literally life or death when you consider how many transwomen have been murdered just for being trans.

 

I don't exactly follow that line of logic, would you say that a Jewish doll was tacky because of the Holocaust and other persecutions of the Jewish people, or for that matter if you wanted an example of a more visual characteristic, a Black doll because of the injustice and horror of slavery? A child doll because of child abuse? That makes no sense.
Kiyono, thanks for the link, very informative. That said, I think that we as people need to take our cues from the community, not from a book, but that which has to do with human interaction, and that may be different in every case. That said, what is polite in speech does change all the time, doesn't it?
As far as the fictional depiction of the handicapped having magical powers, I think that has to do with any fictional writing depicting undercurrents of popular thinking. Just like during the feminist movement there were many tv shows dealing with women who had magical powers that gave them up to be married to mortal men. I think we could go on for hours analyzing that. I think the first mentioned example has to do with people mulling on "injustice", and wanting to believe that life cannot possibly be filled with arbitrary happenstance, that there is a universal balance, ie. I can't walk, but I can do magic, therefore I am compensated. It's just fantasy. I don't think that a handicapped person really benefits themselves or enlightens others by being offended, it is the right of any fictional or artist creator to explore things the way they want to. Otherwise, it's called censure.
I really think this is what it comes down to, fantasy, and popular fantasy most usually deals with popular mental obsessions (like the current love of "magic" or magical powers). I don't think it's harmful at all, what is harmful is pretending that a sub-culture does not exist. To fictionalize something is to embrace and further the process of acceptance. That is the way it's always been, and that's not a bad thing. For example, the 1960's film "Look Who's Coming to Dinner".
Fictionalization does not necessarily mean trivializing. In the case of a doll that costs hundreds of dollars I would certainly say not.

 

It could be suggested that (for example) making a black doll who was a slave, but who suffered no ill effects and was treated as an equal by his owners, would be trivialising slavery. Likewise, a transgender doll who in no way represented the experience of actual people who are trans-gender, in an otherwise realistic setting, could be said to be trivialising the issue.

In this hobby, there seems to be a lot of "othering" of LGBTQ characters, and I know that I for one wouldn't want to accidentally add fuel to that fire, however well-intentioned.

 

The thing is, your hypothetical situation did occur. There are accounts of slaves staying on with their family as servants after being emancipated, simply because the family was kind and treated them with respect and dignity.

Likewise, there are transpeople who can be, and always have been, comfortable with who they are, and who have never really experienced any discrimination in their life.

The problem is that the happy cases don't get covered, so they don't get remembered. You never really hear, for instance, about a gay couple having no problem adopting a child and raising that child in a happy and healthy environment, but you sure do hear about the gay couple who have to sue in order to adopt that child.

Portraying the better times, the ones who have it easy, is not "trivializing" anything. One does not have to suffer for their experience to be valid.

 

I would not consider the doll male if it had large breasts and no boy parts, regardless of what the owner claims. But that's just how my brain works. I see the feminine curves and I think 'female'. THUS regardless of what the doll owner says, my natural reaction will be 'female', before imagination forces my brain to think 'cross-dresser' or 'transgender'.

If the body was more androgynous, it'd be easier for me to say it goes either way. (That is what androgyny is right. )

For dolls with both parts, again depending on how it was dressed and what feature was most prominent would trigger my initial guess.

If that's what the owner wants then good for them. However, don't waggle it in my face going "see, see, I've got a trans doll and I want to make you feel uncomfortable about it." (Not that anyone WOULD, but I've known people who just like the attention. )

In general though, I'd never force my own ideas or beliefs on someone else nor do I oppose their expression of it as long as it does not harm another person physically, emotionally or spiritually.

 

Actually, you're right - not all such stories have to have conflict and discrimination, it's just that a lot do, and erasing the experience of those who do have a harder time isn't doing anyone any favours. Good or bad, the majority will often assume that the most common portrayal of something that they see is the accurate and truthful one, at least subconciously. Like I said, I don't want to tread on anyone's toes here.

 

I've thoroughly enjoyed viewing the development of this topic. As a transman myself, I have to say I never once was offended by the idea of people own transgender dolls. They're dolls! I like that people can do whatever they want with them, and I like that there are people out there, whether in real life contact with transgender people or not, that can appreciate exploring my world through their dolls.

I never looked at someone cross dressing their male doll into female clothes and thought it was inappropriate or not something they should dabble with. And if they told me she was a pre-op, pre-hormone MTF, I'd say awesome, and probably want to hear more about her story.

Someone already mentioned it before, but it takes all kind of people, trans, cis, andro, queer, genderless, to make up a world. The doll world is no different.

As someone personally who has battled intolerance and discomfort with my assigned gender, I have learned to accept nearly everything. If a cisperson wants a transgender doll because they think it's sexy and it's their fetish, cool, maybe I'll take them on a date

I'm terribly in-eloquent, but all-in-all I guess I'm trying to say that while I CERTAINLY do NOT speak for my entire community, I would LOVE to see more transgender dolls around.

Part of the problem in today's society is the transphobia that is prevalent almost everywhere. Maybe it's a small start, but if the gender binary is abandoned with our dolls, it is a sign that it can hopefully permeate into our society.

Don't be scared of gender. It's meant to be bent.