Thoughts on a guy doll having breasts?

I've thought all morning about how to respond to the concern of trivializing or misinforming due to doll characters. I don't want to seem like I don't care about minority groups and how they are depicted in the media, because I actually do. However, when you start talking about people's individual dolls there's a difference there... dolls are vehicles for our wildest imaginings and our own explorations of ideas and situations. Some may stay close to the real world while others veer sharply away. That's the beauty of dolls, because they can be anything, experience anything that we want them too because they are not actual human beings. So there is some truth to the statement "they are dolls not people" -- not being people does not necessarily trivialize per say, but allows them to open the flood gates of our own thoughts and give us total freedom. Doll characters aren't necessarily realistic because they don't have to be -- they don't live in the real human world and experience it's trials that form the actual human population of planet earth. Being dolls also puts them a step further away from us.

Of course when that happens, not everyone will like the outcome. But who has the right to police what other people do with their own very personal resin humanoids? Who can say what is too over the line and what isn't, when each and every person has their own thoughts and opinions on, well, everything. Already in this thread it is clear that even people who relate more personally to these situations in real life do not have a single opinion on the subject as it relates to doll characters. Also as Cloudedmind pointed out above, we don't want to end up in the position of walking on eggshells when ever we go to create a style and personality for a new doll. I think that would cause more harm than good for the hobby in the end. Of course as a viewer I have the right to not like something and use the back button liberally. However, I do not dwell on what I see that I don't like. When I'm looking at other people's dolls, I'm seeing a window into their own imagination and it is not for me to A) read things into it that aren't there, and B) seek to prohibit what they can and can't do.

Also, I do think there is a bright side that perhaps some are missing. If you look beyond issues pertaining only to females, males, gays and lesbians, cross dressers, and transgendered individuals you do see in this hobby a willingness to go beyond typical gender roles and what's considered 'proper' by the more conservative stream in our society. This plays out quite a bit with dolls, and I can't help but feel that it is a good (and fascinating) thing even if it's something that is often more imaginative than true to life. As several people pointed out, it can possibly pave the way towards more real world openness that we are badly in need of.

ETA: Also, if someone doesn't think there are enough true to life doll characters representing a particular group or interest, that person is always free to create their own that can be an example. That could be a productive way of addressing this issue.

 

Exactly.

Openness is good. It leads to conversation and hopefully a reduction in ignorance.

Personally, I like that the dolls I've met are all over the spectrum of gender and sex. It's like how life would be-- if everyone were really open about who they were. And I don't see how that in any way fetishizes things.

 

Here's an interesting bit of food for thought for those who want to see doll characters and experiences more true-to-life.

I see a lot of people talking about how having a trans doll trivializes the issue, or fetishizes it, or what have you, and how it's not "right" to have a mostly-human character in a mostly-human world who has these issues and is okay with them.

But what I don't see are a lot of doll characters that would cause the persecution and hate and violence that causes real-life transpeople to be afraid, to have bad experiences, to be uncomfortable being who they are.

I know of a couple of characters who are severely homophobic, but even they are idealized. The most prominient one I can think of would whine and moan and complain and throw around a few insulting terms, but actually, say, beating up a transperson is not something he would do. (As a note, this person's owner doesn't do the long serialized photostories, and simply has this character because it's a fascinating concept to explore in his own mind.)

So how does this change the situation? Should there be more "bad" characters who commit these hate crimes, to make the doll world more realistic? Does it mean the owners of these types of dolls are trivializing bullying, because they're not following the idea through?

I don't really have much of a point, other than to illustrate these dolls DO tend to live in more highly-idealized worlds than our own, just a random fleeting thought that I grabbed and ran with. I am certainly not meaning to call anyone out or hurt feelings. ^^;

 

I don't think we can say their SHOULD be more bad characters, but it would be a double standard to say they can't exist. If they exist, they exist, and so what. I think it would add dimension to the doll world.

I feel like "trivializing" is a tough word in general. In any situation, not only the doll world, when someone is accused of trivializing something, they are very rarely doing it intentionally, and while unconscious bullying is by no means acceptable, I don't think many people in the doll world would create a trans doll in an attempt to make a joke out of the situation.

I'm not sure where I'm really going with this, haha.

 

On the strict topic of boy doll with girl body: No issue at all with it. Whether the body is modded or not. I had a character whos first doll form was an Angel Region Little Fair Ren on a girl body. He was a boy. Even before I sanded down what little bust he had (immature body has very very very tiny breasts) no one mistook him for a girl. I never finished modding him (adding his penis) before changing the doll back to a girl and giving her to my sister. This doll is now a RS An on the RS single jointed boy body. WHY did I want him on the girl body to start? I wanted him to be able to pass as a girl when he chooses to. Why is he the way he is now? Because I liked the sculpt and body for him better. And because that slim body, in the right girl clothing, with the face and hair styled correctly COULD pass as a girl.

On the deeper subject that has been brought up through this thread, and become more of the focus, of gender, gender identity, and the many forms it takes...well...I've always lived by the belief that people are people. Non of the rest matters in how they should be treated. Everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. I have watched a good (though only online, we live several states apart) friend over the last several years struggle with sexuality, gender identity, and all of it. I will never forget the day we were chatting and this person told me that they KNEW they would never figure themselves out, and so would never fit in anywhere, that where gender, sex, and identity were concerned they would only ever be confused and unsure, and should just give up trying. This person is now coming out, years later, as being FTM. Pre-everything, still, as they are still working through this discovery in themselves with friends and family. I loved this person when they were 'straight', when they were 'bi', when they were 'lesbian', when they were 'nothing', and still love them now. My treatment of this person has never faltered through all their struggles. My love for them as a friend has never wavered. My respect for them, my pride in them, has only grown as they worked through all of this. I KNOW how hard it can be, how someone can suffer. I know how emotionally impossible this person found it all at some points, and how that hurt them. But to take someone's fictional portrayal of something even remotely similar and state that they are trivializing it, or don't understand, and so should not do it...is ludicrous. Should there be more realistic portrayals to counter all the 'myths' and stereotypes? Yes. But you can't look at those who simply do NOT know, and do NOT understand and tell them they're doing it wrong. Without those who DO know and DO understand to tell the stories, real or fictional, there is nothing for them to go on.

And to assume that every 'not true to life' portrayal is by someone ignorant of the real life facts is also, frankly, stupid. Why do I say that? Because I have dealt with such accusations on a different subject. I went through some horrible experiences once in my life. My way of dealing with them is to write 'idealized' fictional stories about the same acts, similar situations. My stories are most definitely NOT true to life. This had me accused of trivializing the subject, of not knowing how the reality can affect someone, what the reality is like. But those accusations are completely false. I write the stories I do, the way I do, as a way to deal with it. I won't go into details, as it's personal, and a topic frowned upon being touched on here on DoA. But please, take that warning as it's meant...to say that you can not just assume that those portrayals you find offensive are done by people with no idea what the reality is. Sometimes the people doing so know exactly what the reality is, have lived through it, ARE living through it, and make those 'fantasy' or 'fetish' versions as ways to deal, ways to make it all...a little easier to deal with.

And in the end...fiction is just that. Fiction. It is not often meant to portray real life. And people need to be reminded of that, be it a TV series, a movie, a book, a story online, a photo, a drawing, or a doll. To take fiction and use it as your base to judge reality is what is silly, and trivializing to real life. People always seem to forget that fiction isn't real, and should not be emulated as though it were. Especially when that fiction is negative, and if taken for 'fact' will only have a negative impact on a person, or group.

 

I don't mind if someone puts their boy on a girl body. If that's what they meant to do, or it's just a place holder so that the head at least HAS a body, have at that. I don't mind if they mod it, or whatever. Their doll. Their character. My telling someone they 'shouldn't' or 'can't' would be pretty much a dumb move on MY part. Lets not forget that these are dolls and while some are modelled after reality, some of my guys included, they are not really PEOPLE except in our heads.

I have a drag-queen doll, that I think a couple of people in the thread might actually already know of. Tanso is a DZ mini boy doll in a dress. Why a dress, and long hair? Because that is how, after 13 years, he is still supposed to look. He likes being feminine, but he definitely is male. His character used to work as a dancer in a club that was full of queens, both male and female. I based my doll after my group of best friends, all of whom are gay and also drag queens, save for one that is just a gay male who dances. I took parts of each of them and gave them to this character. And I've taken him with me out to our only local bar that caters to our group, it's even owned by a gay man, and they all LOVE Tanso, they think he's adorable, and want to carry him around and play with him. They've even offered to help me make him some clothes.

So I think that dolls who are swapped or even just clothed in the other gender's garb are perfectly acceptable. Nothing wrong in my little corner of the big crazy world.

 

Great responses, this topic is very provocative and well done.
enginesoftime, if I wasn't married, I'd go on a date with you

In speaking of fiction portrayals, and doll "stories" for that matter, the basis of all good story telling is conflict, and conflict resolution. It's what makes the characters evolve and grow, and thereby be interesting. A good real life example is the way if someone's relationship or marriage is going just fine, you may not hear from them, but as soon as there's drama they can't stop talking about it. That is just human nature.

 

Gender and identity issues are immensely complex, and fictional representations do colour our world, so I don't go for the "it's only a doll, do what you want" argument. Representations of minorities should be handled respectfully. However, avoiding representations of minorities means they simply do not get represented, and that's bad. Representing the suffering is very important, but representing that life can still be quite wonderful whoever you are is necessary, too. I believe that showing people in rough situations need images of hope, to be shown that the possibility of a better life is not inconceivable.

I'm a straight woman who writes about gay men a lot, and some of my dolls come from those stories. Some of the universes or situations I set up for them are places where different sexualities are accepted as perfectly normal, because that is how I see it, and that is how I firmly believe the real world should be. I don't have any transgendered dolls, but I have no problem with the concept. Any representation can be problematic -- there are some ways that white guys are represented that aren't very helpful, either.

 

There is nothing wrong with having a doll that represents a minority - as long as it's thought out and tastefully done. Of course no one can tell you what to do with your doll. But you need to be aware if you are creating a doll that perpetuates harmful stereotypes.

In the 90's in Japan there was a trend to wear Western wear - boots, hats, and backwards handkerchiefs tied around the neck. The reason is that Western movies were popular. And many Japanese thought those old, historic Westerns were representative of real life in the US now. It seems silly to us, but that's the power of the media and how influential it is.

America is no different. This is a speech by Chimamanda Adichie. She is Nigerian, and attended college in the USA. English is Nigeria's official language, and the language she was raised speaking. Her American college room mate wanted to know where she learned to speak English so well. She wanted to hear her "native music" (she gave her Mariah Carey). Her room mate assumed she didn't know how to use a modern bathroom. That's how profound her concept of "Africa" was.

On the other side, the books Chimamanda read as a child were all British books. When she wrote stories as a child, they ate apples, drank "ginger beer" and did all manner of things she had never experienced herself. That is how profound her concept of "story" was.

Our concepts of minorities, foreign cultures, etc, are profoundly influenced by film, books, tv, and other representations of people. When you say "it's just fiction" - you're trivializing the issue.

 

To be completely honest, once a male doll gets breasts and a vajayjay, I don't consider it a male doll anymore.

 

I have always felt that for the sake of realism, the doll world should reflect the real world somewhat. Meaning, it takes all types. I don't think that having a bjd character that is trans is bad. In fact, I think its awesome. Now if someone said that they we're not going to make a character trans, because "its wrong", or some other judgmental reason, then id ask the person why they have such a problem with it. Its like the gay characters I see being formed. Some form gay characters because they romantacize the homosexual lifestyle, but some also form gay bjd characters because the subject hits close to home. I think its the same way with many other "taboo" subject matter. I say as long as its done tastefully, and respect is given, where's the problem. While I don't have any trans characters, and I'm not trans myself, I can only speak for myself though. I have one gay male character, and my Arachne is a lesbian. For me, having gay characters was a way for me to express things I go thru, day to day. One of my characters was actually even homophobic, and eventually comes to accept my gay characters, thus showing what many deal with on a good note. A man with a negative view of gays, who overcomes his ignorance and opens his mind....

We all have different reasons for the forms of expression we choose.

 

But when you demand that all fiction be true to life, you ignore the possibilities and different aspects of the genre. Sometimes fiction is written that is meant to mirror or make a point about the real world, other times it's nothing but fantasy. People have different reasons and motivations for creating their stories and characters -- they shouldn't all be lumped together. I'm not saying that it's impossible to create something with dolls that is really problematic (though how much influence a doll would have vs a TV show, movie or widely read book is arguable), however, there has to be a middle ground too and an understanding that someone's fictional world does not necessarily equal the real deal. And that reality based fiction, fantasy, erotica, Sci-Fi or whatever other genres people's doll stuff is falling under aren't all the same and shouldn't all be judged in the same way. Approaching dolls with too much rigidity also puts doll owners in the position of only having characters that are just like them, because it's the only way to ensure that no toes are ever stepped on, no one gets the wrong idea and that they as creators are in a defensible position. However, it would also suck a lot of the creativity out of coming up with a personality for your doll.

Once again there is no responsibility given to the viewer and it's all falling on the creator, and I'm not sure that's right.

 

Posted in wrong area....sorry

 

Wait. I'm sorry, what?

 

It doesn't bother me at all, I rarely bat an eyelid at anything in the doll world, why does it matter anything above curiosity what people do with their own dolls? I think it says more about the viewer than the artist if you chose someone's dolly creation or the media to give you your whole outlook on something. In anime and manga, which is where a chunk of this trend for gender blending dolls comes from, the sexes can be hard to tell apart anyway (especially with teen male characters), so I guess traps and the like are natural extensions of that. I'd definitely consider making a character that had such fluid gender, they're interesting.

 

Resin bits are srs bsns apparently.

I don't care if your boy has titties. Nor do I care if he has hoofs or cat ears or ~*~*tragically beautiful*~*~ flowing hair that goes to his ankles. It's your resin; do what you want with it.

Having said that, when someone has a doll that appears female in every way, and I go, "wow, I love her dress!" only to have "HE'S A BOY!" huffily snapped back at me... facepalming ensues.

 

DoA is an English-only forum; with some exceptions, all foreign-language posts will be removed. (We do not consider netspeek, l33t, lolspeak, or txt spk English.) This is from the rules. Please adhere as I personally do not know what your first sentence says.

 

I absolutely agree with this. The creator could chose to factor the reaction of every single viewer and create accordingly but paralysis would be the result. It also doesn't give the viewer any credit for being anything other than a mindless sponge. I can think for myself and reject or accept the statements other people make about the world, and what I decide about that statement may have nothing to do with the statement and everything to do with the creator. Since creativity is often about self-expression, it wouldn't make sense to then censor one's view of the world unless you are making a statement about being a panderer or something.

 

I fail to see how anyone can interpret a negative stereotype as new and creative. By it's very definition, a stereotype is something you see repeated over and over. Avoiding stereotypes is the first step in fostering creativity.

The real answer is that if you are creating something that represents a minority group, and you are in the majority, it makes sense to research that group. What is that group really like? What are the stereotypes of that group? What can you do to break that stereotype? What issues are particularly sensitive within that group?