Using Actual Killers As A Theme: Going Too Far

I think people shouldnt look too hard into it. all media types do it.

 

.... I'm concerned with how people are acting toward the OP. I feel bad for her, despite not sharing her views or even really understanding being offended in general. This actually bothers someone, so give her a break! Stop trying to cover up uncalled-for rudeness with "This is reality, kid". Furthermore there's this... trend of people getting mad at people for being offended and it's sad really. It's like they really don't understand it.. it's OK to be offended... I say that even for stuff I would myself call a bit juvenile to be offended about. It makes sense to the person, and they really are having an emotion - unlike in politics, some people's offense is REAL. The whole game society has made over 'acting offended' alienates people who actually do get disturbed by certain things, and they get told they're 'too old fashioned' or whatever.. She's not insulting you for 'not caring' about a murderer being a murderer... she's CONCERNED about how people are in general, and hopes they think about the innocent lives lost, naturally, instead of being gore/horror obsessed numbs. On that note... I would be very weird-ed out if someone made a doll of say, James Holmes. (aside from the typical garbage you'll see from indie action figure companies for shock value, or in a collectible sense with all kinds of killers...) If a BJD company modeled a sculpt after him or something that would be just bizarre. He's not creepy in a spooky ghost-story sense. There's no appealing aesthetic there, and it's disturbing in a way that's almost... annoying in a way that someone would do such a thing. Just a sicko... I understand the appeal with Lizzie, though. People just like creepy stuff... I don't need to repeat what other people have already explained about Lizzie as a Gothic pop culture phenomenon. I feel bad that you're offended. People don't mean any harm to the victims of the murders, they're just basking in a dark fascination.. who knows what they were thinking... the name might have come up as an idea for a name AFTER the clothes were designed. Ever think maybe that was the case? So someone wasn't necessarily stitching away getting all giddy over Lizzy Borden.

 

The problem is, James Holmes is a recent reference, and so it's not quite the same as a 120 year old aquittal. Most people have expressed their distaste for recent cases being made into dolls, because it's living memory. They then do not express as much distaste for dolls that are well known in 'fictional' lore such as Jack the ripper, Sweeney Todd.

As I said in my previous post; if we allow the ancient past to cloud our judgement now; we're never going to move on. By your post, and by the OP's post, I should be allowed to get rage-face at my boyfriend, because HE'S a GUY, and MEN didn't allow us women to vote. That I should hate the entire Japanese collective, because they (probably) murdered my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great Chinese grandfather in the feudal times. I should probably sue my university as well, because before the war; they didn't allow women to be silversmiths and goldsmiths. That's discrimination, right?

It's acceptable to be offended by past events (for example, I can't understand why Americans would celebrate a genocide of Native Americans as Thanksgiving), but when it clouds your current judgement and creates blanket stereotypes it's incredibly detrimental. It can also stop you noticing the current, very real problems such as the racism, sexism and gender discrimination that is happening right now.

tl;dr If you can look to the past and prevent something bad in the future; that's good! But if you look to the past and miss preventing future problems and solving current problems; it helps no one.

 

I feel like the OP isn't really letting past judgements cloud her judgement. And I feel like what adhara posted is slightly contradictory. Yes, racism and gender discrimination are still current issues that have yet to be resolved, but the only way we can bring awareness to the unfairness and inhumanity of these issues is by looking back at the past and saying, "Look, this is what happened. We don't want it to happen again. This is significant." instead of brushing something like that off as "gone and past". In addition, I feel like this is exactly what the OP is worried about; it doesn't matter if this person is fictional or non fictional, antiquated or current events, the fact is that there is an intentional relationship between this figure and serial killing. I think what the OP is concerned about is not this specific instance, but the concept of using anything related to crimes against humanity as a marketing tool for tools or frivolous products. Maybe the intent of Dollheart is not to glorify serial killers per se, and I don't think that's what the OP means. Rather, the issue is how people seem to be insensitive to the prevalence of themes such as serial killers. Yes, the outfits themselves are pretty, no, they do not have gore or anything graphic on them, but the fact remains that the name calls to attention something that, on the most basic level should not be thrown around carelessly. Not only is it disturbing that many people brush it off as "just a name" (which I think is the main issue here), but that this "name" may be triggering for some.

I'm not saying faulting the OP or any of the posters here, nor am I criticizing companies that market their products this way. I'm merely pointing out what I see as a derivation from the original topic.

 

Well, thing is, referencing dark and frightening aspects of our history, recent or past, is a thing all humans do. Its like a coping mechanism, to trivialize frightening things (innapropriate as it may be), so chances are it won't be something you'll see a stop put to anytime soon. Now, in Lizzie's case, we did it first. American culture took the murders and created a rhyming game for children out of them (that's where the line "Lizzie Borden Took an Axe" came from, I've seen little girls jumping rope to it.) When I was in college, a friend of mine had a poster that was a false ad for Borden's milk, only it was Lizzie Borden's, and the cow had an axe in its head. Our own culture already went there, so I can't really get mad at another culture for going there, too. We don't really have a copyright on the trivialization of our killers and tragedies. Now, a company naming a doll or product after some real-life tragedy or killer who we HAVEN'T trivialized and pop-culturized, then we can say, "Hey there! Foul play!" But if we showed the disrespect first, I think we should focus on that problem. Sort of unfair to ignore the fact that here in the USA, Lizzie Borden has become a joke even among children, but get offended because a company uses a reference to her for doll products that are almost entirely collected by adults.

 

To me it's not a biggie, especially if it's making some kind of statement. I've watched several movies where killers are kids so I don't see that as an issue either, usually that's making a point about corruption and assumptions (actually, I'd be kind of tempted to do a twisted kind of halloween shoot like that). To me, the only time it would become an issue would be if they went and ordered a Minimee at 80% realism of a killer, that'd be too far. But just a photoshoot, or such is okay in my book, I'd certainly look at them, provided that they were done in a reasonable manner (ie warning labels for people who could be offended, limited to 16+/18+ and not absurdly over the top and tasteless).

And the person who mentioned historical figures, makes a good point. It'd be far worse in my mind to have a KKK doll or Hitler or something, that would be unacceptable, even to me and I'm very open minded. I think even a reference to these types of figures would put me off, but that's part of why browsers have a back button and people can make their own decisions about what they like/don't like/want to see/don't.

 

its not a big deal really (to me). although ive always been really interested in murder cases so maybe im a bit biased. i dont necessarily think its glorifying the case, more like using a dark event to create something beautiful from it.

 

Overreaction. This doesn't offend me at all. To me, DollHeart just made another cute outfit for a doll. I don't think it glorifies anything but their skill at making doll clothing. If it did offend me, I would ignore it. I'm not gonna fight for it to be removed or have it stopped, someone else probably likes it. No laws or rules were broken by this company. Besides, the main reason I joined this hobby is the freedom I get to do what I want with my doll and be happy. I think DollHeart should have the freedom to name their products after a nursery rhyme if they want! And I think my inner freedom fighter showing...

 

I think I may have raised an eyebrow, but it didn't bother me all that much, to be honest. I agree with other posters that a Casey Anthony-inspired doll clothing line would be truly offensive, but time has kind of softened the blow as far as Lizzie Borden goes. Lizzie Borden has crossed that imaginary barrier into myth and legend.

That being said - I think the crime has a lot to do with it as well. Lizzie Borden was supposedly badly treated by her parents, and she allegedly killed them after being verbally and physically abused. I think a lot of people see her as an underground hero (or maybe an anti-hero?).

Now, if Dollheart came out with a series of 19th century-inspired clothing called 'Ripper'...that might be different. Maybe not, since we're edging into mythological territory again, but I think it would be a bit more controversial.

 

Why is there a need to be offended? So are you saying that if you watch a movie based on a real killer would offend you? Also, real or not a killer is a killer. I agree with a lot of people on here, if you don't like it then don't buy it or look at it. I'm actually looking for a dolls to turn into real and fictional killers (Once I get the dolls already on my wishlist) for the simple fact that I have always been into the horror and hack and slash movies,books,ect. It's just not in your taste and I completely understand but no reason to be offended by something to trivial...

 

Being a horror movie fan,not much really offends me anymore. I just can't get worked up over Dollheart selling Lizzie Borden clothes. You'll see a lot of dark themes in the BJD world and a lot of us have dolls based on our original evil characters,so I don't see a big difference between that and dolls based on real killers.

 

I believe that, in some instances, a doll based on certain people could be considered offensive.
However, in this given case - doll named after or based on someone who stood on trial for murder and was acquitted,but is still guilty in popular culture -, it isn't offensive.
The name of the clothing does seem to reference to a popular verse about that person, a verse which might or might not correspond to reality.
So I don't see it as being particularly offensive.
But about the OP's generic question, about wether or not a doll based on a killer would be offensive, I think it would heavily depend on how the doll itself came to be and the way that it is used by its owner (if they ever decided to mke it public). But depending on how it was done, on which killer it was based, and with which intentions, I could see it as something that could have an interesting result, without it becoming offensive.

 

Heh. Well, for one thing, Lizzie Borden was never CONVICTED of murder... so according to our judicial system, she is innocent since it was never proven in a court of law.

For another thing... the clothes really have nothing at all to do with murder and serial killing... it's just fashion and an old rhyme ---Lizzie Borden took an Axe, gave her father forty wacks.... and yeah, it has to do with something horrific, but then there was the Ring around the Rosie rhyme that kids used to sing which supposedly was about the Black Death which killed anywhere from 75 to 200 million people--which is a bit worse than someone who supposedly killed her father and mother-in-law...

AND, why draw the line between fictional killers and real life killers when the sentiment is similar, even if no real deaths occurred? I mean, if you're going to be sensitive about it.

--The clothing names might as well be about fictional killers, since no real person was killed in relation to the clothes.

I'm sure the names are all for the shock value. No one was REALLY killed because the clothes were called Lizzie Borden or My mother has killed me (the latter one, I thought they meant that metaphorically, anyway!).

SO... yeah, I think it's an over-reaction. I can see that it's not a pleasant topic, but I'm guessing the names were meant to be unpleasant. I pretty much ignore the names of DH clothes. They really don't make much sense--probably due to the language and cultural differences, as you say.

At least the names aren't "Lizzie Borden was great!" and "Go Kill Your Mother!" or "Jeffrey Dahmer is cool and would wear this!" ... I think I might draw the line at that!

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Hey, the OP posted this thread asking for our opinions...!

I'm not judging the OP.
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As for serial-killer dolls... Eh. It's up to the company to make 'em. Up to the buyers to buy 'em. Or mod the dolls to whatever they wish. It may not be tasteful for some people, but we live in a (supposedly) free society, AND it's not hurting anyone. Sure, a person may disapprove! And may think it's questionable behavior or glorifying murder or murderers. But that's their opinion and they don't have to look or buy.

 

To me it all depends on how far into the past the murder/murderer is. Some, like Jack the Ripper, has become a cult icon and even turned into the realm of fiction. That I don't mind. It is the horror around those things that makes us shiver and become morbidly interested.

Then there are modern day killings which, if I ever saw a company use as a sales ploy, would hurt me deeply. Not many might even remember Anders Breivik, but if you do a memory google you'll figure out what he did. That is the sort of real life murderings I could never deal with used as a glorifying thing for a doll. Though I doubt something like that would ever happen.

So this discussion is far from black and white, there is a lot of grey areas here. A lot of things that has moved slightly away from taboo, and then there is things that is VERY much not ok. To me it is not ok to use the swatstika on uniforms for example, that to me is pushing to too far. You have real life torturers and murderers right there. But apparently there is enough people who don't care that the dollcompanies gets away with it.

 

Im not offended by it at all. But I do collect living dead dolls as well which are primarily based on real killers/stories of the past. I can understand where you are coming from though because most of my friends and family think it's creepy or even 'evil' for that reason. I personally don't think that at all

 

Urban legends I wouldn't find "going to far" but modern day killers I probably would become offended.

 

Dollheart might not think it's anything other than a nursery rhyme. So there's that. But mankind has always been interested in the macabre in both fantastical and real life scenarios. I wouldn't be offended if they had serial killer dolls since that stuff has been so marketed (trading cards, figurines etc) that I'm inured to it. But because of the crossover in ages around our hobby I can understand why others would be offended. Also the manga and anime material that is so popular with the bjd community has tons of stuff that is violent and disturbing and marketed as figures, posters, dakimakura, etc. Which begs the question if that's okay because it's not real? As others have pointed out, lots of grey area here and I think it's okay for people to be offended but things shouldn't be censored. I do agree that somewhere like DoA should have certain standards that make it a community for a broad range of people.

 

I think it's been done before just not with BJD's. Living Dead dolls, there's a Lizzie Borden as I recall, and I've seen dolls based on Jack the Ripper and other serial killers too. It doesn't bother me. I'm naturally a bit macabre by nature. I admit it. I've always been that way. Growing up I would have fit right into The Addams Family. I was a morbid, horror loving, freaky little kid, and I'm still that way as an adult. FYI, I named one of my Delilah Noir dolls after Elizabeth Short, The Black Dahlia actually. She's Dahlia after her nickname. I also have a MH doll that's named Vlada Bathory after the fictional Count Dracula and the real life Blood Countess herself, Erzsébet Bathory. She's not supposed to be them though, only be distantly related to them.

I can't say I ever thought of naming a doll after Lizzie Borden but I wouldn't have a problem with someone doing it, no. I've studied that case, read every book out there on it. I'm firmly in the "Lizzie didn't do it." camp. I'm sympathetic to Lizzie actually, and I don't find thoughts of her all that creepy actually. If anything I feel a bit sorry for her because I don't think she did murder anyone and she's been made into a monster regardless.

Disrespectful? Well, yeah, I suppose so, a bit, but so is that stupid doll they just put out of Joan Crawford complete with wire hangers and a lot of people think that's perfectly okay. I hate that doll with a passion. I actually like Joan, and have heard nothing over the years about her that confirms her daughter's sordid tale. I have read quite a bit actually that contradicts it so I think that doll is horribly unkind to her reputation, to perpetuate a vindictive story that's likely not true, but some people just love it and think it's too terribly funny.

I think I might be a bit superstitious about actually naming a doll after a serial killer directly though. It's one thing to give my MH doll the last name Bathory and to thereby suggest that she's distantly related to that personage and maybe a little blood thirsty but another entirely to name her directly after Erzsébet who was most likely a serial killer in her time. I believe that spirits exist and that they can linger in this world, unhappy after death, perhaps even inhabit a doll. I would not want to live with her spirit in my doll. Elizabeth Short would likely not be scary or potentially harmful to me but Erzsébet Bathory's spirit? That might be another thing entirely. Last thing I need living with me is a murderous Wallachian female Chucky, you know?

 

Fascinating. Though since Elizabeth Short was a victim I imagine her spirit would be melancholy with her unfulfilled dreams. Did you read the book by the the LA cop who believes his father is the killer? Compelling stuff. I found your post interesting because my doll is an excommunicated icon painter (around the time of Andre Rublev) who turned to alchemy and hides out from the church in Gilles De Rais castle during his occult beginnings but has to flee when he turns to serial murder. Historical events make for interesting stories.....

 

Yeah I did. I've read them all pretty much. Jury's out on Short's killer still for me though. I just don't quite buy his theory but I don't really have one for who I think is either.