Using Actual Killers As A Theme: Going Too Far

Many nursery rhymes aren't supposed to be pleasant things to send your kid off to sleep with... they're often supposed to be cautionary. You can't scare your kids into being good if everybody involved comes out alive & has a happy ending.

People in nursery rhymes & fairytales gotta suffer. Picturesquely. Cinderella's stepsisters are not supposed to get a happy ending by being invited to the wedding; for their sins, they're supposed to sneak into the wedding, only to have their eyes pecked out by a bird. Hansel & Gretel's adventures never would've had half the impact at bedtime if they didn't have to resort to burning an old woman to death. The woman who lived in a shoe beat her myriad kids & sent them to bed because she was at her wit's end from being impregnated too many times, so keep birth-control safe & legal. And so on....

 

No harm in discussing it. I just meant that there are people out there that would rather rant and rave, write letters demanding the offensive thing be destroyed/discontinued/recalled and condemn others over what THEY see as "bad" without considering that some people like whatever it is that they are condemning. And I see that far more often in the world that mature people that can and will discuss it civilly and respect the opinions of others, and if they don't approve of something just don't buy it.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this. In my children's literature class, my professor taught us that the original fairy tales and nursery rhymes weren't intended for children initially, but for the adults.

 

Unfortunately, if you try to not offend anyone, you'll end up doing nothing at all. Whenever something is available to the public, the odds are that someone won't like it. No one is supposed to like everything; if we all liked the same things, it would be a pretty damn boring world, wouldn't it?

But it's one thing to say "Ugh, that's not for me" and hit the back button; it's another thing to scream "OBSCENE!" and try to have the thing that offends you removed from existence. (We're not talking about things that should offend everyone, like rape, child abuse, or murder; we're talking about artistic expression in this case, which is what dolls of this type ultimately are.)

The difference? Tolerance. With a healthy dollop of maturity.

Wish more people had it.

 

I'm not offended at all. I agree that it is like using historical figures, since some dolls based on historical figures are based on people who were, when looked at subjectively, not exactly shining examples of morality and goodness.

If I find something a doll company does to be offensive, and it is rare that I do but it has happened, I just steer clear of it. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean it's inherently wrong.

 

He wasn't; he was entirely imaginary and first came to light in a Victorian penny dreadful in a story called "The String of Pearls".

I actually have two dolls based on a story based on Burke and Hare, who were body-snatchers and murderers who lived in the early 19th century. Personally I found the recent comedy Burke and Hare much more offensive than my dolls as it treated murder in such a grotesquely silly, farcical manner. I don't mind this per se, it was just that the film was really really bad. In any case, I'd think anyone who was offended by my dolls being based on real-life murderers was being silly. Don't like it, don't look. It's not hurting anyone, as their crimes were so ancient they can't affect anyone living.

 

Dark-themed dolls are supposed to be disturbing. A lot of people like to be disturbed-- it makes them think. Some people don't like it, and for them there is the back button.

If a doll company was trying to make money off some (living) person's pain, that would be another matter. Or in the example given earlier of Charles Manson, who loves publicity of any sort.

 

hahaha just look at snow white eh? man, she had a bad time...
and the fact that Hansel and Gretel put an old woman IN AN OVEN is never removed from the tale by their names...

and whomever mentioned Grell, so true. That chainsaw freaks me out............

 

I think the fact that it happened in Victorian times, so removed from our experience of what real life is like, makes it take on a fictional feeling. The stories end up being relegated to "the romantic past" bin in our minds like Frankenstein, Dracula, and Brothers Grimm. I actually had to look up the name, I know I'd heard it, but I didn't know it was a real person any more than that Sweeney Todd was a fictional character.

I don't mind it too much, I find. But if it were a John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy serial killer from today, that would seem much less acceptable, perhaps.

Then again, it depends on how it's presented. It's easy to deplore some sensational whatsits marketed at you, but if I saw that someone had used their bjd to explore the concept of murder in an artistically sophisticated way... that they were actually *saying something* with it metaphorically, I'd probably be more understanding.

Raven

 

The only harm I see in discussing it is when the OP and/or another party is using the discussion to try and get a doll(s) banned. I don`t think that`s the case here, but in the before-mentioned Historical Portrayal Dolls thread that is what was going on.

 

Honestly this doesn't offend me. I would be more upset if they tried to glorify a natural disaster or something along those lines. This is just a line from a nursery rhyme. It would be the same as if they did Ring around the Rosie (Which is about the black plague if memory serves.) I think the dresses are cute and I would get one if I had a girl they would fit. :/

 

Whatever fictional character the doll based on, I don't mind, as doesnt matter how bad that character is, it is still not real person, its a fantasy from an imaginary world.
on the other hand, dolls based on real killers, I wouldnt participate in that. The victims suffered so much, their families have to carry the pain till the rest of their days, it is happening here, in the real world, where I am living too. Theres nothing honorable being a killer. Most of them suffering from various psychological/neurological problems, sick people, they are. I might pity their inability to understand their acts, but I would never honor them and/or be their fan. I would not want to put image of any single killer on a doll.

 

I always thought the world rather inhumane and cruel. Occasionally, someone killed someone in the most sickening way ever. I hate it when people tell me it is the minority. You tell me I am making a mountain of a molehill and you amplify it in ridiculous ways through comical films and it is rather disgusting to me. The victims died the most horrible way ever, some were tortured to death, somewhere raped,some endured days or weeks or months of living hell before they finally died. And the misery and suffering their untimely death brought to family and friends. No one deserve todie like that and have their lives cut prematurely short. This is a solemn topic, and to me it is not funny at all. My opinion may be a little extreme,but I say no no to dolls taking after murderers.
But that is just my opinion, I respect others with different opinion. After all, there is always aback button and I just steer clear of things that disturb me.

 

A note about Sweeney Todd:
"A String of Pearls" may or may not have used an actual historical figure (who was NOT called Sweeney Todd) - English dissertations have been written on the subject. The answer is not decisive.
Anyway, if people are offended by, say, the Burke & Hare dolls, then they should be offended by a Templar Knight doll or a Queen Elizabeth the 1st one. Talk about kills, torture & mayhem....

 

It doesn't offend me at all. The whole Lizzie Borden thing took place a long time ago, nobody for sure really knows what happened, and if children can run around singing rhymes about her I can't see why doll clothes meant for adult collectors can't be named after her. I'm pretty sure you can actually tour the house the murders took place in. Like most things, some people will like it, some people won't, others will be indifferent. If people don't like it, then that's fine they don't have to buy it, but I'm just not seeing the harm here. Remember, abjds are not children's play dolls -- you will see themes that are darker/more mature/etc. You have to go pretty far out before you'll get a majority consensus that something is 'too far', because that's a line that can differ a lot from person to person. Many original fairy tales, horror films, ghost stories, urban legends -- in other words things that are all around us and we generally take for granted -- are equally dark.

No one deserves to die like that -- I think the vast majority of people would agree with you. I do think there is a difference between a figure who at this point in time is historical and whose history is rather murky at that, and an actual perpetrator that has recently been in the news where there are victims and loved ones left behind. Violence while not a happy thing, is part of the human experience and as such is going to be explored in different mediums (including dolls). I don't think there's really a clear cut answer such as "this is always wrong" or for that matter "this is always right." As someone else pointed out, this is much like the historical figures. People have different ways of dealing with what is dark and scary -- sometimes it maybe to purposely experience some of that fear (horror films and books), or they may approach an unfunny topic in a humorous way. These are not necessarily bad things, and to expect people to not touch subject matter that has appeared around us for all of our existence is asking rather a lot of humanity. Having respect for the families of victims is not a bad thing by any means, but expecting everyone to just not go there at all is pushing things a bit too far.

 

I can see having murderer dolls. Real or imagined. I have several dolls who I call "Really not nice people".
I guess some people would like to avoid these things and focus on the good of the world. Some people like to face it.
I don't see it as gloriphying anything either. Unless you don't understand that what happened was Bad in the worst sorta way. Than I'd be worried but yeah. I don't see it as morally wrong to have murderer themed dolls even ones based on real people.

 

I'm from Australia, and I'd never heard of Lizzie Borden before, not even the nursery rhyme. When I saw Dollheart's clothing line, I assumed that the nursery rhyme was pure fiction. That said, from what I read after Googling it, Lizzie Borden was found innocent, and it was about 100 years ago now, so I think that's plenty of time to have passed for derivative works. ...And there was a long list of them at the bottom of the wikipedia page. As other people said though, it could be offensive if it was a product about crimes in living memory. But if someone's offended, they simply don't have to buy it.

 

To be honest--I'm in the US, and I had to google Lizzie Borden to find out who the hell she was. It's just a nursery rhyme for romanticized clothes. I think it's an overreaction, though I do understand the whole "murderer theme" can be a fine line to walk. And as for the "My Mother Has Killed Me" outfits--that's not about grotesquerie, either, so much as tragedy; staging dolls as tragic characters, which is beautiful to me.

That said, I do think horror has its place with us. There's this notion that one can't fully appreciate the better side of humanity without having seen the awful, depraved side of the coin. Beyond that, humans are, generally, very curious about the macabre (for instance, just think of all the rubber-necked people staring at a car crash to see how bad it is as they drive by).

I think the issue of basing a doll (or doll accessories) after real killers mainly boils down to the maturity of the owner. I mean, let's face it--we're all adults here. Even the "kids" are teens (for the most part?). This is by no means considered a kid's hobby.

Soooo, since we're all adults, I think that we can, as adults, handle killer-themed dolls with poise and have intellectual, meaningful exchanges about them (not about whether or not we should have those dolls, mind you--but thoughtful exchanges about the dolls themselves). I think, so long as the owner is mature and well-spoken (rather than, you know, going around laughing, saying, "Look, guys! I have a Casey Anthony doll! Isn't this HILARIOUS?"), then I don't see any real problems. I think PrinceDuCiel made a good point--because we're all adults, we UNDERSTAND that what real murderers did was bad--horrible, god-awful, even. I don't think dolls like that are meant to offend--I think they're meant to better explore a psychological territory most of us wouldn't ever access otherwise, humanity at a different level.

The point could also be made that if we just shrink away from those things and people, we give them more power over us (our fear), so then by exploring those things, we face them and come to terms with them, and they aren't as big as they were before.

So long as it's not made out to be a joke, and the victims in question aren't disrespected, I myself don't have a problem with it. As it goes with art, "either everything's okay to work with, or nothing is."

 

Lizzy Borden, Jack the Ripper, Burke and Hare are a long time ago, I dont mind that at all. I would however, find it a bit bothersome and offensive and hurtfull to relatives if someone would base a doll on a living or recent murderer,

But that is just my opinion.

 

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with it, just be tactful. If you were going to have a doll based on a living serial killer I think you should be careful, you dont know who is going to see it who maybe related to victims etc.
Also I think it depends on where you are from, someone in another country may be fascinated by a serial killer who is well known to a local part of the UK for example. For me my locally known serial killer is Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper. For me personally I wouldnt be offended if someone in Yorkshire had a doll based on Sutcliffe, but I would expect them to have some maturity and respect and be responsible.
Serial killers are a fascination of mine, I paint portraits of lesser known murderers but I would never let them be seen outside of my house nor sell or exhibit them, however I wouldnt take offense seeing others artwork based on the same subject.
A company selling a doll based on a historical figure I think is a very case by case subject. It may be seen as being OK to sell a doll based on Burke or Hare for example, but of course it would never be seen as OK to sell a doll based on Adolf Hitler in this day and age.
So I think basically if you dont find this sort of thing offensive I think its mature to realise someone will find it offensive so be mature and responsible.