Using Actual Killers As A Theme: Going Too Far

Seriously,most nursery rhymes are pretty disturbing if you know the context. "Ring around the Rosie", "Mistress Mary, Quite Contrary", and "Lizzie Borden Took an Axe" are all about deadly historical events twisted into mythology (Black Plague, Mary Queen of Scots, and the Borden Murders). I don't really see playing with the tourist trap mythos as offensive. All they really did was mimic the pattern and style of Lizzie's dress, and use the children's rhyme to name the clothing line. (What I find TRULY offensive is the Lizzie Borden Bed and Breakfast "Museum". And the amount of attention Ghost Adventures gave to wild theory.)

I'd probably be offended if they stuck to a horrific event in macabre detail.....but they haven't. So I'm not.

 

I agree with all of this, but I deal with the horror of the world in a very different way. I do think that, by and large, the world is a pretty horrible place and the humans living in it are fairly monstrous. This sounds pessimistic perhaps, but that's my perception and whether it's true or not (or my many mental illnesses are getting the better of me) doesn't really matter.
I'm going to say that dolls, as a creative outlets, are ideal to use as a means to understand one's own fears and hang-ups. I view people as generally monstrous- therefore my dolls really are monsters, ghouls, zombies, cyborgs etc. One of my dolls, for example, is a necrophiliac flesh-eating corpse (with a penchant for antique rum). His idea of a fun night is to ransack a grave, have sex with, and then eat, the occupant, and possibly kill anyone who disturbs him. In real life, I would have a huge problem with these behaviours. I have no intention of making friends with necrophiliac cannibals, in fact I think they should probably be locked up for their own good. As a doll, however, I adore him. The same goes for my cyborg. He thinks nothing of torturing and mutilating a living being in the name of science. I abhor this behaviour in real life but when it comes to my doll, it is fantasized, made fun of, and easy to cope with.

There is a film genre known as camp horror into which many of the early horror films fall. They deal with gore, horror, terror, violence and death, but they're funny as well. The horror is "camped up" and made fun of and in doing so becomes easier to handle. Suddenly we are able to laugh at things that terrify us, and this diminishes their power. This is how I feel about my dolls. They are murderers, but I don't take them seriously. They kill for fun, and they ARE fun. It's a parody of murder, almost; acknowledging it exists, but making fun of it. I don't intend to make fun of the victims of murder or their families- that kind of grief is one of the hardest to bear. And I have no intention to glorify murderers. But it seems that in times like these, when fear is so rife, it's good to be able to laugh at it for once.

 

Im not offended, for many of the reasons stated elsewhere in this thread, the least of which being that Lizzie Borden has become...almost public domain, in a way. I used to skip to the rhyme at school, and until I did some research for my university course on Fairy Tales, I assumed she was a fictional character. And as mentioned previously, fairytales tend to not be nice. Cinderella's stepsisters had their eyes pecked out. Yeh Hsien's mother was turned into a cow, killed, cooked, and served to her own unaware daughter. Little Inger trod on a breadloaf meant for her poor mother to save her shoes from getting muddy, and was dragged down to hell and turned to stone. Bluebeard's last wife was the only one to avoid getting chopped into chunks and dumped in the forbidden room.

In a similar vein, Im pretty sure the 'My Mother Killed Me' clothing line is also fairy-tale based, from a variation of the 'Pippety-Pew' story, of a little boy murdered by his mother who becomes a bird and gets his revenge.
Pippety-pew,
My mammy me slew
My mother, she killed me
My daddy, he ate me,
My sister Kate, she gathered my bones
And laid them between two milk-white stones.
Pip-pip, what I fine bird I am!

 

Hummm this is a fascinating discussion. Agree with most of the people here. I may not like it but if it doesn't bother someone else and its not hurting anyone then by all means buy it or take photos or whatever. I mean we all have issues, and we all have things that trigger things in us that bother us, but that doesn't mean that it bothers other people. Again in total agreement with others about fairytales and nursery rhymes, and some animation was meant for adults with adult themes. Shrugs I don't know I think its a nice discussion but that it all leads back to what's personally offensive to the person.

Edit after reading a post that was posted while I was typing this one. I decided to add a couple of other things to my post. Eveyone wants to believe that the most worst thing is never ever going to happen to them that their (fill in the black) isn't going to be you name it...until it happens and then its an event that triggers things for that person. I don't like shootings that's an issue for me but i had a friend who was killed by a mass shooting four years ago. So while that triggers me, its not funny but its not my place to tell someone else how to behave. I honestly think that as in any hobby there will be things we don't like and that's ok not to like it.

 

I have no problem with the Lizzie Borden reference for various reasons. First, the event in question happened many, many years ago, and there are no living relatives/friends still mourning the victims. Second, Lizzie Borden was found not guilty by the court, so, technically, she's not a murderer. And, finally, I actually had to Google Lizzie Borden, as I had no idea who it was and what crimes she may have committed; this person is now a historical figure, since so much time his passed.

However, I generally do not like horror-themed dolls, and do not own any. I also dislike horror-themed films,books, art, etc. I tend to have an over-active imagination and get easily wound up from seeing gore and other atrocities. But, it all comes down to individual tastes and interests.

 

In a hobby full of dolls depicting demons, vampires, werewolves, what's the deal about a nursery rhyme about a woman found innocent of murder? Where exactly do you draw the line as offensive?

Do Vampire dolls upset you? They should, since they are based from Vlad the Impaler. Do werewolves offend you? They should, since there are historical accounts of murderers who acted like wolves.

 

I don't like it at all.

Regardless that it isn't a current murder/alleged murder ~ it is truly in BAD taste. I don't believe that murder should be glamorized or sensationalized. Since you asked, I give my opinion despite the opposition. I personally wouldn't want that kind of negative theme/energy in my home! (let it be known that I am a HUGE DollHearts collector and in this case, I will not be purchasing)

 

Thank you, dear. I posted the same. IT's simply wrong ~ where is the humanity? Art is art, but glorifying death of innocents is simply despicable. We have too much of this ugliness in our world...And as an artist with all the highly sensitized acuity of our kindred, I have to continue to speak up and say NO to the ugly counterfeit 'ART' that is nothing but a reflection of the decrepit World that I despise! Enough of the crap that uses the world of art to promote their agenda of hate and abuse. As human beings, we should all be against the ugliness of murder, rape, and abuses of the innocent. It is the obligation of all of us as human and lovers of all that is good and innocent. We should be the protectors of the innocent!

 

Personally I find nothing wrong with using murder references. Why not glamorize the murderers? People glamorize drugs, sex, torture and murder in music, games, and on TV every day, we teach our children songs about sacrificing children (london bridge), plague (ring around the rosie), gambling, gluttony, murder (Hanzel and grettel), virgin murders and literal blood baths (mary contrary).. The list is endless. Putting a single line from Lizzy Borden on the name of a product is innocent in comparison to my aforementioned points, so no,. I find absolutely no offense in the naming. This isn't meant to offend anyone, it is just my opinion on the topic.

 

I'm not offended in the slightest. IMHO humans are animals. When an animal species gets too prevalent for it's own good then nature finds some way to correct that. It could be through destruction of habitat, or limiting of the food supply, but I follow an odd fringe theory that behaviors will arise during overpopulation. Behaviors that turn a population combative and competitive: war, genocide, crusades, murder, etc. Again, it's just my opinion and I don't want to offend any one, I just see it as a side effect of the sheer number of humans there are on the planet.

There are people out there with Hitler 1/6 scale action figures. Am I offended? No, people are free to make what they want. Would I buy one? HECK NO! Would I wonder about the sanity of anyone who did. You better believe it. It still has a right to exist. If we even so much as censor the very extreme cases of this kind of marketing then it will go step by step pushed by people using their own uncomfortableness as an excuse to destroy anything they don't find desirable until we have a homogenized, pasteurized and thoroughly flavorless world.

 

Steady on. I see where you're coming from but I can't help but find speeches like this quite funny. Artists are not protectors of the innocent. That's Batman's job. I don't think art portraying "death of innocents" is glorifying anything- it's making you consider things and look at the world in a different way. We can't all produce art full of rainbows and butterflies and lollipops (that would be too, too boring to even contemplate). Some of us love our art full of blood, death, horror, gore, and decaying flesh. As I stated previously in this thread, at least two, possibly four, or more, of my dolls are murderers. Do I think murder is cool or sexy or glamorous? No. It's just how they are. It's not real. It's just PRETEND.

 

Art can be beautiful, peaceful, angry, violent, ugly, interesting, disturbing, playful, etc, often multiple things at once. You can't define what art is and what should or shouldn't be art. But think of it this way -- artists are people living in a world surrounded by other people. The human existence contains both great beauty and great misery, why would only one end of the spectrum be portrayed? To only show the good and the innocent is to portray a world that does not exist. Sometimes art that is disturbing is also very powerful and moving.

Also, your call to everyone else to completely disregard anything that you don't like and find personally disturbing is a little offensive in and of itself. Don't each of us get to decide how we interpret the art that we see? Don't we as individuals all handle the less pleasant aspects of life in different ways? Just because someone creates something that you find disturbing does not mean that they are actually promoting an agenda of 'hate and abuse' either. It's not that black and white all the time.

 

I have to agree with Taco here. I mean no one has the right to dictate to anyone else. Its not black and white. And while as I posted before I have my own issues with certian things but I don't censor anyone else because I'm sure it doesn't bother other people. Art is Art and is open to anyone for interpretation.
Taco I love what you said at the end of your little paragraph about promoting their own agenda because honestly most of the time its the viewer who puts the meaning onto something. Yes, the artist may have a thought as to what they were representing but that doesn't mean that everyone will come to the same conclusion.

 

I was more disturbed by the one company that had a sculpt called Kyle Reese and Huey Lewis lol

 

I think it's kind of an overreaction at the same time I think it's not quite okay.

I do not see the problem with creating clothes or dolls after a theme like murderers or something like that. e.g. If someone wants to make a Jack the Ripper doll, why shouldn't she/he?
It's basically the same as wanting to make a queen Elisabeth. It is THEIR doll. Their choice. I doubt they mean to be disrespectful either way, but I also understand some are sensitive about the subject.

On the other side I see it like this: If movies about wars, killers and all that are 'okay' to be made, books are 'okay' to be written, heck even biographies are written and sold... Why not a doll as well?
Uniforms that remember of Hitler-times are 'okay' to be made as well, as are other military uniforms.
Would I think of that person as disrepectful or even inclined in that direction? Nope. I understand that they might just like the way the clothes look or need it for part of their characters creation.

Personally I'm not a fan of war-games or movies, but since they are socially accepted... *shrugs* One has to draw the line what one is comfortable with and not for oneself.
If no one was intersted in those themes, they wouldn't be created (probably) and wouldn't sale. If they do, it means there is enough interest in the market.

That's my personal oppinion on the matter anyway. :3

 

It seems that you and I have a different way of dealing with the ugliness around us. When I was a kid, I hated books and movies with happy endings, because I 'knew' the real world didn't work that way. I wanted to read what was real, not some fantasy. So, it wasn't until I was about nine and I read this book where the hero was executed at the end, that I actually started reading. That story spoke to the heart.

We (general) might be able to fake our worldview, but that's the last thing an artist should be: fake. Only when we're true to ourselves and our believes, are we able to move others with our work. Doesn't mean that there's a secret agenda or something. We all have different experiences and we all have different ways of dealing with things: and we speak from what we know.

 

O my, you made me google Kyle Reese, now my husband gave me very strange looks when he saw me looking at those pics.

 

I have to say how surprised I am over the dismissiveness of some postings.
Regardless of "how long ago" or "how uneffected by it we personally are" it was still someone's life taken away by viloence.

IMO it's statements like that that are more shocking and disturbing. Hence why having killer dolls is so popular. Never an issue, because it's just our imaginations" until we are directly affected by it.

Sad sad...

 

The art versus exploitation debate is an interesting one in general, but regardless of where you fall on that issue, referring to the Dollheart outfit as a "killer doll" does seem over the top. The outfit in question was pretty clearly named for the nursery rhyme, and unlike some of the other dolls mentioned here (some of Ringdoll's or Dollmore's murder/horror/nazi-inspired pieces), there's nothing about it that even suggests violence.

 

Well, it seems having a link that says "where are your manners?" in your signature apparently exempts you from having to have or learn manners. I gotta try that.

Anyway, even the Dollmore Film Noir Lawrence wasn't a "killer doll", either-- his sales page specifically tells you that he's dressed up as a murderer for a Halloween party. That's why his skull-makeup faceup looks like he did it himself in finger-paint, because it's a COSTUME. Not the name/look/theme of any real murderer. Sure got a lot of panties in a lot of twists at the time, though, and still seems to have the power to twist.

The nursery rhyme quoted by DollHeart isn't based on a real murderer, either, since (as has been copiously established in the past few pages) Lizzie Borden was acquitted.

As for the "protector of the innocent" job, no thanks, I already have a career.I'ma just let that one lie there where it is, & try to keep a straight face. O Batman, where art thou??