Using Actual Killers As A Theme: Going Too Far

lol okay...

Killer dolls are popular as you just pointed out in your post...

EDIT

I could careless in the end...however...if it is based off the nursery rhyme then it is based off of viloence.

Once again an example of people so far removed from the actual act of viloence that it's so easily dismissed.

 

As far as manners go, please tell me how I was rude?

U have something to say...say it.

As far as manners...pot kettle black...if u really wanna call people out on being "rude" you provide enough evidence of how lacking it can be on this board at times.

 

It's based off of a nursery rhyme based off of an incident where the accused was acquitted. So I guess I just wanted to say:

Yes, I think you're over reacting.

 

Had it been marilyn manson I would jump on the wagon. As it were, I don't think it's fair to refer to her as a ''real life murderer'' when the only real evidence was that she didn't get along with her parents. I find it offensive she is being referred to as though she was a convicted killer when she was acquitted and there was and is no real evidence to prove otherwise. So basing it on the thought of ''mocking a real murder'' I would say it's really an over reaction.

However, I don't like the idea of costumes being named after the concept of murder in general, be it an allegation on the possibly innocent, a fictitious story, or a real murder. I think it's in bad taste anyway.

(to add to that a little girl I used to read to in school was murdered, and my husband's friend a few years ago... so I'm saying that I feel it is in bad taste not because I'm some prude, but because it hits a nerve when you actually understand it from personal experience -but not because of Lizzie Borden, because a murder case or murder rhyme is nothing to throw into fashion)

 

ok......Let's see.

We've got:
Demons, Devils, Succbi, Ax murderers, chain-saw murderess and zombies. All released by various doll companies.
Not only that we've got character dolls based off of shock rocker Marilyn Manson(Sorry TheJadeAngel), Sweeney Todd, Pyramid-head. ect.. Dolls based off of horror movies and stories.

We've also got BJD collectors who customize their dolls to look like zombies and horrific murder victims.
The latest one I seen looks like a child that got caught under a lawnmower.

Now I don't suppose that all this ^ Bothers anyone, I mean we are all adults right? We can be mature about adult subjects such as Death, Murderers, Gore & Horror.

I can see how Real Life murderers might put some people in a tizzy, it's a sensitive subject.

I remember that a doll of Hitler was pulled off the shelves (for obvious reasons.) and since then he's become a HTF collectable. There are still doll collector who are looking for this doll despite the controversial connection.

If a Company was to release a doll of say, Charles Manson, (And I'm sure that someone did, if my memory serves me right.) It would raise a lot of eyebrows.
But to have a well known killer released as a collectable figure does glamorizes them, and that I think lies the problem most people have with it.

It's the glamorization of murder and bloody history that offends people, And I admit myself. But I wouldn't stop or make debasing comments about people who buy them. That would be just rude.

People will always be fascinated by the dark-side of human-nature and there will be people who will be offended by it.

Edit: My Post is starting to become long winded, but I should answer the OP question:

No, you are not over reacting, It's a very personal subject and different people will react differently to it.





A little off-topic (Sorry)
Oh Michealmicheal? The best thing I've learnt is how to use the "Ignore user" option DoA has.

 

After taking a look at the dolls and clothing in question? I'd definitely say it's an overreaction to get upset by this. As others before me have pointed out, Lizzie Borden wasn't even convicted of the crimes she was accused of. The dolls themselves don't really call to mind any violent imagery or allusions either, in my opinion.

Maybe if they'd named the line after Lorena Bobbit and put red patches on the crotch of the boys' pants I'd see a reason to get all flustered. I personally might think that such a thing would be funny, but I'm aware that I have an unusually morbid sense of humor.

 

It honestly doesn't bother/offend me at all. I stick to "if you don't like, don't look/buy." simple as that. It's just a collection using a name. Not to mention she was acquitted and several shows/movies/etc have used that silly little rhyme for ages. And as far as where does something draw a line, if someone else wants to mimic their doll after a killer or whatever, what should it matter to me? It's not my doll. I didn't pay for it. I have no right to say what it gets to be. Would I personally ever have a doll mimicked after a real killer? No I wouldn't. I absolutely love learning about serial killers and the killer mind in general, but it honestly just doesn't interest me to have a doll in one's likeness. For one, all of my dolls are my original characters, I have no tribute dolls. And for two, yet again, it just doesn't interest me. But if someone else wants to do it, they can knock themselves out. It won't hurt me any.

I will say though, I would absolutely consider dolling a fictional killer maybe one that I've created. After watching Dee Snider's Strangeland for the first time tonight, I do have plans to create a character that has some of the killer's (Capt. Howdy) features because I found the movie fascinating.

 

That's brilliant. I'm having visions of the Dollheart photoshoot for that. And as Dollheart are so good with props, I'm wondering what they'd have in the background. Salami slicer...?

Anyway, JennyNemesis, I don't think Michaelmichael was rude so much as... inarticulate maybe. Though I must agree that signature is annoying in the extremes. I know where my manners are, thanks, and I know how to post.
I must say I adore Dollmore as a company for their willingness to push the boundaries with the concepts behind their dolls and just have fun with it. Dolls are meant to be fun, after all, as well as beautiful, and I personally consider their Film Noir Lawrence both. The doll I really adore is Victor Lou, who is the best, most ruthless, bloodthirsty, most realistic vampire doll I've ever seen. There's a proper vamp for you. I've yet to see a vampire doll made with such horrible brio and flair. And yet of course, there are some who like their vampires clean and bloodless and resembling mild-mannered vegetarians at a knitting party. Each to their own.

Elysion gear- off topic again, but how does that actually work, the ignore user option?

 

Did anyone actually follow the links of michaelmichael's sig?

I sure know how to post, but found the video hilarious.

 

I would only find this to be tasteless if the murders in question happened less than one hundred years ago. After 100 years, it sort of morphs into urban folktale and becomes a part of pop culture. Sort of like Jack the Ripper... terrible crimes, but now he's been warped into more of a character than an actual person.

This. She was acquitted, but that dosen't make a good rhyme.

 

I found it mildly amusing. What I find more amusing is the concerns Michaelmichael is expressing about "killer dolls" and their intrinsic capacity to stimulate violence, and right below, the link to controversialdoll. I haven't been on that site in years, but the last time I had a look, dolls themed as long-dead or fictional criminals were not exactly the most controversial things on there. Despite demanding "Are your dolls controversial?" it would appear that if they were, he wouldn't like them.

Most people seem to be open to the idea of murderers from long ago, and some people don't even mind Nazi-themed dolls. I can kind of understand that- Nazi uniforms (designed by Hugo Boss?) are pretty awesome, or at least I would think so if I didn't know anything about the Nazis and what they symbolize. As I do, I find it difficult to differentiate a love for iconic Nazi uniforms and a love for white supremacy, genocide and anti-semiticism. So I do understand why some people really like Nazi-themed things purely for the aesthetic, but I still distrust that and would feel really uneasy around someone who collected Nazi things or had a Hitler-themed doll. I guess Nazism is still too prevalent for me to think it's OK to be into that. Hitler is not Jack the Ripper and shouldn't, in my view, be treated in the same way.

 

If you think I was "rude", then you're going to have a reeeeally hard time with the rest of the world! Good luck with that. Next.

Sure, it would be in questionable taste, but that doesn't mean it still wouldn't be hilarious. XD

Everybody's thresholds are different on where that line is, when something awful turns into something enjoyable; I guess that in-between zone is called "camp". A lot of things I find are campy good fun are widely regarded as vile; John Waters would understand. And Ken Russell, bless his departed soul.

(Also yes, my money's on Dollmore to do the perfect sales-shoot.... Complete with a kielbasa & a stray Glamor Bust Zaoll girl in bunny-ears holding the knife....)

 

I agree with this in addition to the fact it's a Nursery Rhyme.
Based on real events, morbid or not, It still is just a BJD, and just a Nursery Rhyme.

What would be horrific, is the act Being redone.
But any axe murder case is usually horrific, or any murder case, for that matter.
As horrible as it is to say, even if it was redone, it would eventually be a thing of the past,
then settle, and life would just move on.

I don't think a BJD is going to stop the way of life, so no, Not offended at all.

 

Using Actual Killers theme to sell a product: Yes, going too far in bad taste. As a society, we don't need glorification of those killers, my problem with this is. . .in the past serial killers used to make money while still in prison for what they did by selling their stories so to say. It's a bit stricter now, but still it's a no go for me. We put them in prison for a reason.

Fictional killers or based on: Ok, as long as their made up. I understand people can have a curiosity towards the macabre and horror. It's a psychological ride, curiosity, or even an experience of both negative and positive emotions simultaneously in a horror movie etc.

 

I'm not offended and I don't think it is glorifying murderers. Lizzie Borden's crime was long enough ago that her crimes have taken on mythical proportions, like Sweeny Todd (a fictional version of a real killer), Jack the Ripper (real) or Burke and Hare (real). There have been fictionalized accounts of her life, books and films and now it's hard to separate the real woman from the myth. I would be more likely to be a bit squeamish about a more recent murderer like Mansun or Ted Bundy being used as inspiration because those cases are still very real for a lot of the victims families. It's less easy to argue it's just a bit of ghoulish fun then.

Ohhh, and I forgot, there is a lot of doubt over whether Ms Borden actually killed anyone isn't there? So that backs up my point that the myth is bigger than the facts.

 

Okay, it's one thing to be personally offended and make the personal decision that something is not to your tastes but quite another to throw around phrases such as "people so far removed from the actual act of viloence that it's so easily dismissed." or "As a society, we don't need glorification of those killers"

1. we aren't talking about real violence. Yes violence actually happened to real people somewhere down the line but THESE ARE DOLLS. A doll cannot BE a killer. If you buy a Hitler figure it doesn't go around killing other action figures, nor does anyone see it and think "gee, I have a sudden temptation to kill someone!". It's a toy. Period. A thing. I suppose you could kill someone with it if you bludgeoned them over the head, but it would be far easier with something else. They pose no danger to anyone (besides toxic resin dust) So yes, we can dismiss it. It's dismiss-able. Those people with gory horror figure may be the first people to stand up when someone needs REAL help. Dismissing a toy does not mean they would neglect to help anyone in an actual violent situation.

2. Society needs what it produces (assuming that this might even remotely glorify killing). There is no great overseer of humanity that stops production of something, if someone in a society makes something then there was a use for said item or it wouldn't exist. Victoria's Secret made a diamond covered bra. Literally covered with diamonds. It exists because someone sat down and thought "you know what I should make today? A diamond covered bra!". Society won't all of a sudden fall apart because that's not the way things work. Items don't destroy society, people do.

 

Just because someone doesn't have a problem with it, doesn't mean that they are being dismissive either. People are giving reasons why they don't have an issue with this particular scenario that to me seems pretty reasonable. Violence has always been a part of human existence -- that doesn't mean it's 'good' or that the people here aren't concerned about the safety and welfare of others. It's a matter of recognizing what exists in the world around us and what boundaries we should/should not put on it's portrayal -- because violence will be portrayed no matter what. It's around us too much to simply be ignored. Drawing lines by time and fantasy vs fiction are ways in which can be sensitive to others while not completely ignoring the topic all together. I see nothing dismissive about this.

There are many violent stories, fairy tales, nursery rhymes etc dating from times where a lot of people would not have been very far removed from violence (though, I'm not sure we really are now so much either), so I don't think it's purely a matter of being too far removed to take it seriously either. Rather different people handle things differently, and not everybody chooses to ignore that which is disturbing.

 

Elysion, reading your post I realized I made a mistake in my typing. I meant to say Charles Manson, NOT Marilin Manson XD (my bad... but I wanted to correct that)

 

Well you click on the side menus when you get into your user CP, It's under 'Account=setting' as "Edit Ignore list" and there is a form in which you can copy/paste a user-name to it, that way, you'll never see their posts or get PMs from them ever again.

That's no problem, I was a little unsure what you'd meant.


Back on Topic:

I've said what I had to say, but I don't mind repeating that Everyone reacts differently to sensitive subjects like this one. It's an extremely personal thing and if everyone respects that by not making a big deal of how another person reacts ('cause who knows, perhaps that person whom you think is over reacting has had first hand knowledge of murderers and extreme violence?)
Then maybe we can find out how something like the name of a Doll clothing line can offend a person.

 

In some ways, maybe creating a horrid nursery rhyme about a woman who was considered innocent is nastier

I do kind of see where you're coming from, though. I have a similar thing with that character Grell Sutcliffe from the comic/cartoon Black Butler. To my knowledge, his name is taken from Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper (and this Grell figure is introduced during a storyline about Jack the Ripper). I've seen a few dolls based on the Grell character, official and non-official... I find that way more nose-wrinkling, since Sutcliffe's victims' families are still alive (relatively speaking, it's a very recent case) and having to deal with what has happened.

I find it bad taste, but yes, there is a back-button I suppose. I don't have to look at it.