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What do you think about Hybrids?

Nov 19, 2008

    1. I don't think that's fair. I don't think people think the topic itself is silly, but that people who would have an "ethical" problem with hybrids is preposterous. And... well, apparently a few people do. I still think it's preposterous, but so are lots of things that are true, alas.

      Do you actually think that? I'm stunned.

      Honestly, my assumption has always been that the companies that only produce heads do so because they're small shops -- maybe one person -- without the capital or the supplies to cast bodies, which are much larger and more complex a casting task than a doll head. While my Migidoll head is lovely, it's not as "professional" a cast as my other dolls. The outside is fine, but on the inside it's pretty rough. I doubt Migi has the resources to cast entire bodies.

      I also think a lot of the orientation toward using Volks bodies for these heads is that Volks bodies are, at least in Asia, incredibly popular and readily available. If I wanted a Volks MSD body for my Miu I could go to Y!J or the marketplace and pick one up right now. What I ACTUALLY want is a Kid Delf body, and that's a lot trickier to find secondhand, certainly.

      I honestly have no problem with hybrids. I believe that once I buy something it's mine to do with as I like, which includes putting another company's parts on it. I'm pretty picky about resin matching and such so I'm disinclined to OWN a hybrid if the company makes a body I can use, but I don't care if others own them and I don't think they're doing anything objectionable.
       
    2. Count me among the masses of "has repeatedly tried to see any problem or argument with hybrids, but just can't". And count me among the masses of longtime collectors who had no idea that ANYBODY was getting their panties in a twist over hybridness. Quel surprise. I always thought it was just a matter of personal taste, like everything else in the hobby. Dollhobby is all about going Frankenstein.

      Someone else's idea of "artistic integrity" never enters into it, because then you'd have to lose artistic integrity every time you changed the doll's wig. Changing bodies (or not) is no different from changing eyes or hair or shoes (or not), because it's all about getting your creation to be just-the-way-you-like-it. Say you don't like the doll's default body, it doesn't suit his character, and he only seems to come alive as soon as you get a different body-- obviously, his Artistic Integrity was lowered by having that original body. He was just a freakish assembly of illfitting factory parts until you got him the right body. You only achieve "integrity" when the doll finally matches the vision you had for him.

      And I can't even parse the argument that head-only sculptors are talentless greedy opportunists-- because they don't like sculpting bodies, or don't know how to make bodies, or don't have the resources to make bodies, but yet they still get to make money? Because they only make what they're good at, they don't deserve to sell anything? I think that's the crux of the argument? (Yes no?) :? To me, that doesn't even impersonate logic. If it were basically logical, there wouldn't be so many doll companies who sell headless bodies and/or bodiless heads.
       
    3. I think Usagi665 has an interesting point, when you take into consideration that Volks considers ALL bjd by other companies to be "piratical products", or they used to anyway...!

      Personally I don't think it's an 'ethics' issue, but if you take a hybrid into a Volks store then it's going to be more of a 'manners' issue, lol, and you won't get a very warm welcome! XD

      I think bjd companies (coming into it after Volks anyway) should *expect* that their parts be used for hybridization. I may not personally find hybrids appealing, but lots of people do, whether it's for character or aesthetic reasons or for simple corner-cutting. If I were to make bjd, I'd go into it expecting that at some point, somebody might put another company's head on my body sculpt, or another body under my head sculpt.

      Well, we're talking about sculpts here, not accessories... so that question is somewhat irrelevant.

      Raven
       
    4. What about Twigling? She's a highly respected member of DoA who has sculpted her beautiful 'Twiglimbs' designed to be used in conjunction with an existing Volks doll body.

      Is she therefore 'slapping Volks in the face', or is she currently getting slaps from other people via this thread, whether they intend it or not?

      This thought-path therefore treads on extraordinarily dangerous ground, don't you think?
       
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    6. I don't have a problem with hybrids. I have several hybrids because I match my dolls to my existing characters. I have to find the right face and the right body type and sometimes those two don't coincide on the same doll. It would be much more convenient for me if I didn't have to do that, but I have my own set of standards to which I must adhere.

      Different doll artists have different attitudes about this topic. We're all quite familiar with Volks' stance, but there are other artists like Supia and Limwha who will not sell their dolls in pieces because they consider the entire doll a work of art in it's own right. To create a hybrid would ruin the artistic integrity of the piece. I think this is a perfectly valid viewpoint and I suspect that if I spent that many hours of my life creating a doll I'd be irked if someone used parts of it in conjunction with other parts that I felt didn't have the same aesthetic flavor.

      There are other artists of equal standing such as Dollstown and Shinydoll who have no problem whatsoever with hybrids. Even though they are also essentially single artist studios who have labored long over their dolls, they sell their bodies separately, show other companies' heads on the bodies and discuss resin compatibility.

      As for those artists who only sculpt heads, I find the idea that they are merely talentless opportunists absurd. There is no law dictating that an artist must take an interest in creating the entire doll. I am working on several heads of my own which are intended for the Dollstown 15 boy body. I see no reason to reinvent the wheel when I seriously believe that someone else has already made the ideal body I would have liked to have created.

      There is no blanket statement to be made about hybrids. Some artists are more interested in protecting their own aesthetic vision, other artists are delighted to share their art in any way. The only time I can see anyone thinking that either stance is financially motivated is when I see someone mention, for example, that they plan to put a Delf head on a B&G body because the Delf body is too expensive and the B&G is close enough. One could see that both Luts and B&G would have an opinion about this practice.
       
    7. Right before i start this post i'll make my point clear. I own a hybrid. I also own a head on an opposite gender body to the company original. Hybrids are wonderful ways of getting your dream doll. When i bought my head the company didn't sell a body, but even now the body isnt a perfect match i much prefer it over the companies. I wanted a shorter body for my boy and this body is perfect for me. It wasn't a case of finance, it was a case of finding the right sculpt.

      I love this post by Raven. It shows that they are willing to admit and be mature about the fact they dislike hybrids because they prefer to see dolls as a whole peice of art. A prime example of how varied the doll community really is. Some people are more concentrated on making that perfect character, that dream doll. Whilst others are in this to collect them as artwork.

      So lets kick up a debate from the other side of the field, the companies side.

      Say your a company who produces full dolls (heads and bodies) and someone buys your heads and puts them onto cheaper bodies for the cost cutting reasons not the aesthetic. Obviously that's going to lose you money because there's another company out there with a cheaper body with a close skin colour match. On the other hand the company who sold the body will mostly go uncredited or mentioned in photoshoots or person, there's the free advertising part lost for the second company. Most people pay attention to the headsculpts, bodies are usually clothed or covered.
      There's no denying that people are more likely to buy a doll if they see owner photos beforehand with the exception of limiteds.

      It's quite obvious pretty much the vast majority of owners have no problems with hybrids as this thread has shown so far. But i think there's a good potential here for discussion on how hybrid dolls effect the companies.
       
    8. Interesting point, really... but I don't really agree. In the case of Volks, they do not sell bodies separately (aside from at some of the painting classes), so one way or another they will get the revenue of a full doll. Many other companies sell bodies separately; ideally, I'm sure they're hoping that people will also buy their heads to put on their bodies. But realistically, I think they are seeing the market of people who are looking for bodies for their atelier heads. Rather than stealing someone's market, head-only ateliers are creating a new, additional market for established makers.

      I am a great lover of atelier heads, though, so I will admit to a bias.

      The only thing I dislike about hybridization from any sort of "ethical"/politeness standpoint is when I see a company post a doll in News or on their own website, then see questions about what other companies their heads or bodies match.... or immediately asking if they will sell body or head a la carte when they have offered a full doll. To me, this is rude... I don't think it's fair to expect a company to promote their competitors.

      I think hybrids are neat... I also think it's neat to see which companies the head-only ateliers attempt to match. Usually they offer colors that match Volks normal, Volks white, Luts normal, and Luts white. Is it okay for them to market their heads using other companies names in the descriptors? Who knows! On one hand, they are (as Usagi665 said) using another artist's work as a stepping stone... but on the other, it's a big shout-out to that company by saying that they prefer that company's work and think you should buy it!
       
    9. Wow. Who knew there was a whoooole load of people getting all het up about whether dolls retain their "artistic integrity" because their owners saw fit to switch out their bodies! I'm gonna assume that since most people here couldn't give a toss, the ones wringing their hands are in the minority...which can only be a good thing in a hobby entirely based around customisation!

      Personally, I have two hybrids and I play host to a third on a regular basis. I really don't care what the artists who's bodies I chose not to use think about my hybridising their heads because they still got my money either way when I purchased the dolls in the first place. If I choose to sell on the bodies, that's my decision to make, and no business of the company that sold them to me.

      In my case, I switched out bodies that didn't have the posability/sculpting I liked and replaced them with ones I did. I imagine most people going to the effort of making hybrids, and it IS an effort, do so for similar reasons. If people think hybridising is a cheaper option, they're kidding themselves. ALL of my hybrids cost me more than keeping the heads on their original bodies would have.

      How anyone can say that a doll that poses better, looks better and better suits the character I purchased it for after having a body switched, is lacking in artistic integrity because it's not as the company intended is rather missing the point of the hobby to me.

      But hey, each to their own eh, and people NOT hybridising means more for people like me :)
       
    10. To those who oppose to hybrids:
      Do you also oppose changing the model of the body (or head) even if it's from the same company? Like having a Volks girl head that was originally sold with an SD13 body changed to a SD10 body?
      Would you consider this a hybrid?


      Anyway, as to my personal opinion towards the subject, I find nothing wrong with hybrids (I do own a hybrid). I'm all for the "whatever makes you happy" mentality. It does not bother me that someone wouldn't like my doll because he is a hybrid. If Migidoll did make a body and I liked it more than the current one my doll has then sure I'd consider buying it. I own a Volks doll as well and I see them all as equal.
       
    11. If hybridization of dolls had a serious effect on companies, we would surely see more companies driven out of business. So far, no company has gone out of business thanks to hybrids. In fact, the sale of bodies alone to match with heads from other companies likely compensates for any sales lost through people not buying full, matching dolls.

      It's a good thought, but I don't think hybrid dolls have any significant effect on doll companies, financially.
       
    12. Good effort at trying to save the debate, but it seems that everyone here is pretty much in agreement and to guess what companies feel about it is sort of redundant because that's only supposition and guesswork.

      Oh, yeah. I like hybrids. I'd prefer to keep a whole doll from one company - purely because it's annoying looking up resin matches, etc. and mistakes can be costly - but it's a bit like men: sometimes you need something different from several.

      Anyhoo, I understand that Volks aren't keen on it and if I went to a Dollpa I'd take no non-Volks dolls or Volks hybrids.

      I can't see anyone losing money as there are several 'heads only' creators about necessitating a need for more bodies. Therefore companies can only win as long as they are producing good value or nicely designed bodies. If they aren't then they'll just have to pull their socks up!
       
    13. I wouldn't consider this a hybrid, and have done it myself many times... BUT I do insist on a *perfect* resin match. Why have a doll that costs $$$ with mis-matched parts? I know some people don't care, but I'd find it distracting!

      Raven
       
    14. Not really. It's possible to take a discussion seriously but still consider some of the viewpoints expressed as being silly. Now if someone actually posts a cat picture, that would be another story.

      Actually, I don't think it fits on any level. Some people will love every part of a company's dolls, while some will only like the heads or only like the bodies. Some people like me will sometimes like the heads and bodies from the same company, but feel that the body type (as attractive as it may be) doesn't fit the character they have in mind. The long shapely legs on the CP type 1 boy bodies do not work so well when your character is somewhere between 5'5" and 5'6".

      As for heads only sculptors--that just doesn't make sense. If they put out beautiful heads, then they clearly have great talent--at making heads! Just like some folks make beautiful dresses but aren't so good at making pants or shoes. If they have a head sculpting talent, then I for one, am thrilled that they're sharing it with the rest of us. And while body sculpt is important to me, no matter how well engineered the body is, I'm not going to keep a head I think is unattractive, and that is not an unreasonable attitude to take. Plus, head sculptors are still setting themselves up for critiques on their work--any artist who's out there selling stuff whether it be complete dolls, doll heads, doll clothing will have people who aren't completely happy with their work.

      Also, just to point out--people use a lot more bodies than just Volks, and even if something is made to mimic Volks' skin tone, that's a body that Volks just sold--money in Volks' coffers. Not a bad deal. Volks may not approve, but it's not hurting them monetarily, considering that the other option would be to not buy from them period. There are a lot of bjd companies out there, so there's competition and not everyone is going to love everything about every doll. It isn't a personal swipe against any particular company, it's just life--you can't please everybody all of the time.

      This seems to suggest that the head is less important than the body, or that it takes nothing to sculpt a beautiful head, and that is pretty silly IMO. And really, it doesn't matter if it's a compliment or not--people will hybridize because this hobby at it's core is about customization. People will change what they're not happy with, and once someone has shelled out the cash for a doll or doll parts, that doll is theirs not the company's anymore.

      The important thing is for the owner to do the things to their doll that makes the doll perfect in their eyes so that they will love and be happy with their doll. While I respect the care and artistry companies put into their dolls, they are only a part of the equation--it is the owners that make the dolls truly unique and give them life.

      I can understand not wanting a hybrid for yourself (general you)--it's easier to buy a full doll, and you don't have to worry about fit and resin matching. But the idea that there is something morally off about it strikes me as brand loyalty taken to a nonsensical degree.
       
    15. If Volks doesn't want me to make a hybrid with one of their heads then they need to make SD17 bodies freely available and not LE, they also need to make them move as much as a Domuya Flexi-P. An SD13 body just isn't right for Mish's character, he needs to be taller, slouchier and more mature, I've only spotted 3 SD17s in the Marketplace since his head arrived and only 1 was headless which would have meant breaking up another LE for my pleasure.

      If Luts wants me to stop slapping their heads on other bodies then they need to address the range of movement in their standard bodies. I really don't get on with their girl bodies, I can just about manage not to hate the boy body I've got. But since I like more than 1 girl head and I don't like having 2 of the same body it's not going to completely solve the problem.

      Basically I find that I like heads and I like bodies but usually not from the same company. I am also governed less by what might be seen as 'correct' and more by what is needed for me to achieve the right look and movement for the character I am trying to house. I am not a purist and if I'm spending my money then I want it to look and move in ways that make me happy, that actually meet my needs for that doll. No one else's. If you don't want to own a hybrid, that's fine by me, you don't have to. Just don't try telling me that I can't own them, because I can and I already do. If you don't want to even see a hybrid then don't ever click on one of my threads because if it features anyone other than Valentine you aren't going to like it.

      I really don't see this as a matter of ethics. I mean, no dollies were harmed in the making of these hybrids.;)

      As for the artistic integrity thing, if you carry that through to it's logical conclusion then you should only buy full sets and never alter any of it. Surely any alteration to the original artist's vision is compromising the artistic integrity? Isn't it just a matter of how far away from the original vision you, as an owner, are happy to go?

      Ravendolls
      I think it's a little inappropriate to imply that someone who has made a hybrid out of genuine parts is somehow being dishonest. They aren't copying or recasting, if they were they'd be banned from DoA. It's nothing like owning an illegal fake designer bag, it's more like not wearing the same designer from head to toe, or not wearing an outfit exactly as it was shown on the catwalk or the shop model.

      Is that really what you mean or are you just trying to express your discomfort?
       
      • x 1
    16. Curiously, are you specifically referring to companies like Volks, Limhwa, etc, who only sell complete dolls (body + head) or are companies that are willing to sell their heads and bodies separately included as well?

      In the case of revenue, I don't think that makes sense. Agreeing with what Armeleia said:

      Also, in the case of bodies, most companies sculpt their bodies once (improving on those as time goes by, but it's not a new body per year either). After that, it's just the repetitive process of casting. Unlike the head-only sculptors who have to sculpt and produce new heads constantly to keep up their sales. Not saying that head-only sculptors have it tougher, but I'm saying it's not so easy either.


      Interestingly enough, I have a Delf head on a B&G body. I chose this hybrid because I needed that particularly character to have a thinner, frailer and slightly curvy body, as opposed to his rival on a chunkier CP body. At the same time, I'm planning to hybrid a Volks head on a SD16 body or Dollstown body. One hybrid did turn out cheaper, the other will be a lot more expensive.

      In either case, I don't really mind if someone said I got a B&G body for a Delf head based on a financially motivated decision. Why do people need to excuse themselves for buying something based on cost, especially if it's something that is not illegal or harmful? If someone told me they did it to be cost efficient and they're happy, I would say go for it.




      Personally, I can understand companies like Volks, Supia, Limhwa, Dollmore etc, only selling whole bodies for artistic integrity. I can understand not wanting to wave a hybrid doll (with some parts from their company) in their faces. However, I also firmly believe that they are functioning as businesses. They are aware and are prepared for their dolls to be made part of a hybrid.

      The only way an artist can maintain full control over their creations is to not ever sell them, to keep the dolls with them for as long as they live and to bury the dolls with them when they've died.
       
    17. ^This. It'd be lovely to pretend that money isn't a factor when I purchase a doll, but it is. Obviously, I won't buy a doll unless I really like the sculpt (why the heck would I want to buy it, otherwise? I'm certainly not doing it for the street cred, given how many non-BJD people see the hobby as creepy and weird), but price is always going to be a consideration. I want value for money - and there's really no such thing as a 'cheap' bjd.
       
    18. Some dolls seem perfect to me, just the way the artist made them, original heads with original bodies and I can't imagine putting the head on a different body. Other dolls seem like the head could be with any number of bodies, depending on whether I wanted them tall, short, slender, or whatever. I have both kinds and like them all equally. I do like for the resin to match and sometimes it takes me a very long time to find a body that works for me, but I think the search is kind of fun. I guess I have my own personal aesthetic for dolls and customizing them to suit myself is why I like collecting them.
       
    19. Note I said *almost*. Almost like owning a fake. It doesn't ring true to me; like a repaired bell.

      But that's just me. Nowhere did I say or imply that everyone should think what I think. I don't know why that's so hard for people to understand. If people can't handle opinions that they don't agree with, they should probably not be in the debate section.

      Raven
       
    20. Hi, hello, this is the points running in my head right now.

      I love Volks. If I didn't, I wouldn't own so many of the bloody things. But, I do. That being said, I still would love to tweak and modify each of them. If Someone came out with a double-jointed body in the SD10 girl size, that matched the Volk resin.. I'd be hankering one for to put my darling Luna on. She's supposed to be a dancer and I want more flexibility for it.

      Because Volks hasn't made a double-jointed body for them, yet. I predict that Ricky's SD17 body will become popular because it fills the void many have in wanting the Volks SD17 body. But the Volks SD17 bodies are expensive on the market and hard to come by. I may put my brand new Migidoll head on a Ricky body when I get around to it, but until then, he shall share with my Heath.

      As for artist head dolls... people like them because it means it adds more variety to the market. I don't like many of Volks' mature heads, but I like Migidolls. The fact that they match Volks' resin makes it easier for me and a lot of fun. Because I'd like to see Volks come out with more double-jointed bodies in the other sizes, I still love the fact that it has resin consistency that no one else has.

      And Luts bodies are just a nightmare. Just a nightmare. When I filled out the survey I told the company the exact reason why I wasn't buying any more of their products, and the biggest reason boiled down to two things: their craptastic body and their resin issues. Will I sell my Shiwoo Elf? No, I love his little face. I'll put up with his body until I find a new one to fill the gap.

      Most of my Volks dolls will keep their bodies because they are originals: my Fullset Heath will keep his body because he is a fullset, and I'd never replace my Jun's body because it is her original one. If Ricky produced his Sd17 body in Volks WS, I'd dump my WC Chris' body in a heart beat... once money allowed it.

      I may only be allowed to bring the complete Volksy bodies in to Volks events and not my others, I'm okay with that because I'll respect Volks. But, as more bodies become available for my dolls, the more I shall consider new bodies.

      The one big hybrid that DOES bug me is when someone puts a Volks head on a Dollzone body. This instance is an ethical one for me, because when I think about the history between Dollzone and Volks I just cannot be comfortable with the idea of these heads together. But, that has a reason that someone could read about on the forum.

      I never thought anyone had a problem with hybrids. This attitude reminds me of the reaction people give me because I decided to have a Volks girl body modified to remove the parts of the sculpt that identified it as a female, add on boy bits. I could have saved up and hunted for a Yugiri body, but it wasn't that big deal to me. I didn't do it to make my character into a girly boy, but a man who truly cross-dresses as a woman with the help of magic. When I first brought my transgendered doll to a local meet up I did not get the impression that the doll was well received, and it really hurt my feelings. I cannot imagine how a hybrid owner would feel about this, but it sounds really hurtful.