What do you think about Hybrids?

We're all handling different opinions by either agreeing or disagreeing. And then discussing why. That's what debates are for so I think they're pretty much in the right section.

 

I don't have a problem with hybrids as long as they don't have the obvious frankendolly/ farmer's tan effect going on in terms of resin match. I do think it's unfailingly impolite for people to inquire about hybrid resin matches on a company's website. Especially if said company has a clear message to the tune of "we don't know if our dolls match companies XYZ, please stop asking" in their FAQ section.

At the same time, I can see ravendolls' point. I don't think face-ups and accessories can be compared to the "artistic integrity" of a whole doll. No face-up lasts forever and I can't think of a single company that doesn't give you the option of having one on your doll. I also can't think of a single company that makes their own wigs, eyes, & clothing, and expects people to purchase them as a "complete picture." It's not quite the same as a basic head + body set that someone (or some people) crafted with their own two hands to fulfill a vision.

 

Psssst! Shinydoll THAASA

 

Er, some companies sell their limited dolls (where you can't purchase the sculpt any other way) full set, with clothes, wigs, eyes and face-up. Usually, with their own concept too. You have no choice.

I do wonder if in that case, do people feel the clothes, accessories, wig and eyes cannot be removed to maintain artistic integrity? Do they feel the concept of the doll sold should remain the same as well?

In terms of face-up lasting forever, even resin doesn't exactly stay the same forever.

 

The connection of heads/bodies to wigs/faceups may be a little tenuous. However, the idea of artistic integrity when it comes to bjds is problematic. Unlike other types of collectibles or art objects that are expected to be kept in their original condition, bjds are made to be customized by their owners. This might mean changing a faceup or sueding the joints, but it can also mean heavy duty permanent mods or hybridizing. While the artist sculpting the doll obviously has his/her own vision of the completed product, it's the owners that actually finish the doll. That's always been a major part of the hobby, it also means that the sculptor is only one part of the equation. The owner's vision is also of great importance. So what makes a particular doll keep it's artistic integrity as opposed to somehow losing it? I don't think there's really an answer to that.

I have great respect for the bjd artists out there who create these wonderful dolls for us, but I also think that respect can get taken to the point that people forget what the hobby is about and what role we ourselves play in it. These dolls are supposed to inspire creativity and be canvases to work on. They are made to be easily customized, and were not meant to be finished shelf pieces (though they can be treated as such). That means people are going to change them--maybe in ways that some companies didn't expect or are less than fond of, but at the point they are shipped off to their new owners, it's not about what the company intended or wanted anymore. They did their job and did it well, but it's time for the new owner to take over and create his/her own vision with their new doll.

 

I personally don't have much of an opinion on hybriding, but I have definately considered it. I'm new in the hobby, and when I was looking to buy my first doll, I thought it might be the cheapest alternative to paying $500+. However, I found my boy at Bobobie which has really competetive prices and that made me super happy
Honestly, as some bodies are $400 and the heads are $100+, I don't think hybrids are the cheaper route anymore. And I don't think it's necessarily wrong, but I've already made a friend who literally made me swear I wouldn't do it. I don't think it's an ethical thing, but some people prefer to have everything matching from one company, and personally I'm like that myself now, but I still don't think that there's any reason to go insane over it if someone does make a Hybrid. I'd actually like to see some so I can form a better opinion on them.

 

Odd thread. If there are people who have a problem with hybrids, then its their problem. As long as everything is legal: all items were paid for, customs was paid (if needed), all companies involved are not selling illegal recasts - who cares?
The only problem is proportion matching, resin matching and the mechanical attachment.

The only situation that a hybrid would be wrong would be to take it to a particular company's event or show. If its a Volks event, there shouldn't be a Volks/CP hybrid there - it would just be rude.

The artistic integrity... I can understand it and there is an agreement in the model horse hobby that basicly asserts the artist's rights. You can repaint and possibly hair the model but you cannot adjust/move limbs. I cannot remember the name of it. The companies can always ask us not to hybrid. But at the end of the day, you own it you can do whatever you want with it.

Of course I do own one doll that I love the face (esp. once Raven did the face-up) but actively dislike the design of the body. In fact I will never purchase another doll body from this company. She probably will become a hybrid unless I start cutting and redesigning the joints.

*Removed something because I'm just in a bad mood. Sorry for taking it out on ya'all

 

Absolutely, and I think that even more than a shout-out, they're actually sending customers the other company's way by casting in the same shade of resin. Maybe people would argue that this is negligable because they're "stealing" business from them by creating just heads, but I'll bet there are a lot of cases where a person doesn't like any of the company's own heads and otherwise would never have purchased anything from them.


I've also found that sometimes not liking a company's body can put me OFF owning one of their dolls no matter how much I love the head. For example, I have a Luts vampire Yder, and I just couldn't stand how the head looked on their body, I found it looked far too small. If I had had no other choice but to keep him on that body, I probably would have ended up selling him. He's floating at the moment, but I want to get him a B&G body in the future, not because of any price issues but because I just really like their body and it suits the character better.

 

Yes I consider many of them opportunists. The ones who have been around for years and sell out of all their heads clearly have the know how and the talent. From where I stand, they just aren't willing to take a business risk.

I mentioned Volks because many artists who make only heads use Volks bodies for their personal hybrids. They also frequently sell face upped Volks dolls. When I think of heads I just think of artists like Ricky.

 

Which is why I specifically said "basic head + body set," and didn't mention limiteds at all. The latter would be more appropriate for the existing "should LEs be split/modified" thread.

I suppose it depends on one's personal context for "artistic integrity" (another reason why comparing standards and limiteds don't work in the above paragraph). For someone who values artistic integrity in head + body "completeness" as opposed to hybridization, I don't think temporary additions like face-ups, clothes, and wigs would not matter to them at all.

I'd say a good face-up lasts 3-4 years before it needs to be wiped and redone. The same can't be said for resin. You don't have to buy a whole doll after 3-4 years simply because it yellowed.

 

...umm, how is being unwilling to take a risk opportunistic? Now, if a company that had been very successful at selling only heads suddenly came out with a body for their heads--a body that was very simplistic in sculpt and uninteresting--and then changed their resin colour so it no longer matched any other company, in essence forcing you to buy their body for a perfect resin match, that would be opportunistic. Seeing that their heads were selling well alone, then deciding to force customers to buy their doll body if they wanted good match for their head, based on the idea that the heads were already selling well, so they should continue to sell at the same level, and now each head would need a body to go with it...that is opportunism.
Selling heads alone that match another company's bodies is just sticking to what you enjoy doing (sculpting heads) while giving your customers the freedom to customise your vision into the doll of their dreams...which is what I thought this hobby was really about from the start....

(I'm being completely hypothetical here, just so you know--no company I know of has ever actually done this.)

 

I don't think you understand the costs involved in manufacturing and selling a full BJD. Maybe you should check out the customization section and see how expensive it is just to cast one head. Then you might understand why it's not so much an unwillingness to take a risk as it is good business sense :

 

Taco: Perhaps the people who prefer non-hybrid dolls want an "original" blank slate to work with. Even if you do extensive modding, re-do face-ups, and tinker with engineering (or take away its LE aspects, following LKJ's example), the doll pieces themselves still make a "whole" from one particular brand. But when you start adding parts from another company, the owner may see the artistic integrity/completeness as "compromised." Again, it would depend on how one sees "artistic integrity" to begin with. From the perspective of a hypothetical "no hybrids ever" owner, the "value" of a bald/naked/eyeless doll in its complete form from one BJD artist/team probably doesn't have anything to do with how one chooses to customize aesthetics or mobility.

At least, that's my take on it.

 

It would fit in that thread as well, yes, but I do think if we're talking about completeness of a doll in terms of artistic integrity, it's part of the subject here as well.

Ah, but I would kind of like to hear from people opposed to hybridization because of completeness of doll. Because everyone's context of artistic integrity varies so I'm just curious to know what they would consider a complete doll for a fullset LE.

When a face-up needs to be wiped really depends on the owner and the face-up. Some owners will stick with the face-ups even after they've been damaged or has been worn down. My doll's face-up is 3 years old and mostly intact despite heavy playing by me. I imagine dolls bought for display (also more likely to be bought by the same people who would prefer their dolls complete and in their original condition) will have intact face-ups for a good time longer. Also, I know owners who have bought new dolls to replace the older ones that yellowed after a year or so. They just couldn't stand the yellowed dolls. Again, it's a personal thing. That's why I'm curious to know.

 

Im half and half with this hybrid thing.

I like the thought of them for Head-only companies.
As that is the only reason im going to be soon owning a hybrid.

But if the doll i want is not from a head-only company.
Then the head and body have to be the same.
Otherwise i feel its not "complete".
Volks head with volks body
Luts head with luts body
etc, etc.
this is my personal feelings about this.

I have no problem with other people owning hybrids though.
They can do with they want. its their doll, if they can deal with hybrids hurrah for them.
The only time if i see someone with a hybrid i might cringe, is it the resin match is really off.
Or if the proportion is way off, making then look alienish. It would irk me.

 

Yes, certainly--and there are plenty of rational reasons why a person would prefer not to go the hybrid route. It's when people start laying ethical issues on it or a loss of integrity that I question, because it really suggests that we owe the companies more than we do--that somehow we're responsible for seeing their artistic vision kept complete. However, that's somewhat at odds with a hobby built around customization and the idea that we make our dolls our own.

While someone can personally feel that artistic integrity has been lost (because sometimes we just feel what we feel), arguing it as a reason against the idea of hybrids in general fails since there is no specific way to view artistic integrity when it comes to dolls that are meant to be changed. So while I don't have an issue with someone preferring to buy complete dolls from the companies, I find that attaching an ethical dilemma to hybridizing illogical and at odds with what the hobby has largely been about.

 

Cost and business aside, perhaps they simply just have no interest in making bodies. There is no law that says they must make a complete doll.

 

Hmmm... I admit, I have a very difficult time fathoming where you are coming from with this. You are ticked at people who have a talent (sculpting heads) and dare to sell what they're good at making. Could they make bodies? I don't know...I don't know what ability at engineering bodies they have, what resources they have at their disposal, not to mention whether or not they have the interest. I doubt you know any of these things either. And when is someone required to take a business risk they don't want to take? They make a beautiful well crafted product that people obviously want--great for them!

Are they harming companies that make complete dolls? No. They are not, because the people buying just the bodies may not have otherwise purchased anything from them. Does the idea bother some companies? Possibly...but I'm not going to sit around and ponder whether or not I'm going to be bothering a company before every doll buying decision I make. That's not my responsibility, and it's frankly unreasonable. To claim artists who only make heads are merely opportunists is also unreasonable and completely ignores the the things they have to offer to the bjd hobby as well as their own considerable talent at what they do.

 

I think the problem with this idea that various artists are only making a quick buck on the Volks brand is that it leads to the idea that EVERY BJD not produced by Volks is essentially a ripoff making money on another's idea. Companies that make heads only, companies that make bodies and heads that are sold separately, companies that only sell complete dolls, companies that sell expensive limited fullsets, etc. And sure some people believe that, but the majority of people on DoA probably don't. Honestly... there are arguments for either side.

To use an analogy which has shown such great success in other threads... think of a car.

Obviously one company came up with the idea for a convertible first, or an SUV, or a hybrid car, or what have you. But now many companies make all of these things, and they make them rather differently, and people who want different things are happy with their different cars. Are all SUVs then a ripoff of army Jeeps? Are all hybrid cars stealing from the Prius? Unfortunately, when an idea gets out into the world, there will always be people who see it and think "Oh wow, how great, but what if I did it THIS way instead?" and then create their own version. It can be a great thing! With dolls, we wouldn't have double joints, coloured resins, magnetic hands, swappable faceplates, etc. if nobody had seen Volks' dolls and decided to try their own thing.

As for artists that only sculpt heads, yes there is a different skill set required for head and body sculpting, because body sculpting requires that you engineer the joints to be functional, whereas head sculpting requires a good artistic touch and very little enginering. Even within doll companies, the head sculptor is not always the same person who does the bodies, and some companies even bring in an outside artist to sculpt a body for them, or form an agreement with another doll company to use their body sculpt (for example, Blue Fairy and Angel Region share the same body but their head lineup and resin colours are different). I don't think there's anything wrong with someone saying "I can't make a good body, so I'll hire someone else to do it" nor do I think it's wrong for them to say "I can't make a good body, so I'll let my customers choose a body from another company for my heads".

Though it may be a bit controversial for me to say, I also think there are some sculptors who make better bodies than heads- I'm totally wowed by Shinydoll's Thaasa bodies, but the face sculpts always looked a bit unfinished to me. Or Fantasy Doll... I'm almost convinced that they went into business hoping to sell cheap bodies for hybrids and then decided to make some heads as well. I don't know how good their bodies are but the heads, again in my own personal opinion, leave something to be desired.

Making a doll body which is both functional and attractive IS a very different skill from making a doll head with a beautiful face.

 

QFE. Very much so.