Your Dolls and Security Officers-ever a problem?

No, your rights are not being violated, because you have no right to fashion. Rights that you don't have can't be violated.

(1) Your right to free speech does not extend to private property. While you are on private properly -- which includes privately owned malls! -- you have no right to free speech.

(2) Even free speech rights extended to private property (and they don't), not all clothing qualifies under free speech protections. Your clothing must be more than just a fashion statement, it must be a "symbolic act." It must have a religious, political, philosophical, or social message, "I like this" or "This looks cool" or "This is how I dress" does not qualify.

(3) Private stores are legally allowed to deny or restrict service due to your manner of dress. Religion, race, gender, disabilities, and age are all protected (and sometimes sexual orientation, marital status, military status, and weight depending on the City or State); fashion is not.

So yes, security CAN follow you around because they don't like how you're dressed. They CAN ask you to leave if they don't like how you're dressed. They CAN ask to search your bag because they don't like how you're dressed. They have every right to judge you strictly based on your appearance.

The only thing they cannot do is [a] detain you solely due to your manner of dress (you are protected against unreasonable search and seizure) or search your bags if you have not consented to the search if they are conducting the search solely due to your manner of dress (again, unreasonable search and seizure). In CBAB's case, what the store did was wrong not because they judged him base on his clothing, but because they detained and searched him without probable cause. In most States, only actually seeing a person shoplift qualifies as probable cause.

This also means you have no legal right to bring your dolls onto private property. You can be kicked out of any private establishment due to your dolls, and it would be totally legal.

All of this, of course, applies to the US. I don't know international law.

 

Whenever at a mall with one or more of my dolls or at a meet-up, usually the security officers have no problem so long as no one is selling anything. Though..then again, even that tends to fly fast them.

 

LOL I would actually LOVE to see a security guard go up to a shopper, who he deems is 'not supposed to be there", and tell him he has to leave. If the guy is CLEARLY just hanging out talking to people THAT is loitering, but if i'm walking around looking at things, please explain to me how he knows i'm not looking for a gift, or just browsing. I do NOT have to buy something just because i went into a store. And you should probably remember that something is not 'private property' unless it is CLEARLY marked and posted. And that, is a LAW. If it is clearly posted that something is private property, then you are right, it is. If it is a PUBLIC establishment, good reason has to be given to tell someone to leave, and i'm sorry, "you are dressed in all black, and clearly do not fit in here" is not a good reason.

I think this is all sort of relative tho, the bottom line is, too many people let 'security' walk on them just because they show a badge. Today at work (I work in a mall, in a restraunt) One of the security officers and i were talking about this very subject. He told me that even though the property was considered private property, this does NOT mean that people can tell you what to wear, as long as it is not revealing. Although he did admit he wishes he COULD do that LOL He also sort of laughed at the notion that someone got upset because someone had their dolls in the mall. He said that if this were something security was allowed to do, they could walk up to any individual and tell them, "I'm sorry miss, your handbag is causing quite a stir, you need to leave the mall." Everyone here obviously has their opinions, but i'm gonna go with the security guard at the mall LOL He clearly knows his job, (he's one of the cool ones who suggested that i report the officer who harrassed my friends) and i think i'll just say that this is clearly going to be on a case by case basis. Some people do exaggerate, and because none of us were there to witness these events mentioned previously, no one will ever know but the individuals involved. I will say, in the end, no one is ever going to tell me how i can dress, and where, or what i can carry, as long as i'm abiding the rules. And god help the first person who tries to tell me i have no right to be in a PUBLIC store, because i have not yet bought anything.

 

I have no idea where you studied law, but you do not have to post "private property" for it to be, well, private property. When a private citizen owns property, that property -- so long as it is not used for governmental purposes -- is private property. Period. Stores are absolutely not public property. Just because they are open to the public does NOT mean they are public property. (I think you are confused with certain laws relating to trespassing charges on unimproved property, in which a trespassing sign must be posted in order for certain charges to be applicable, but that has NOTHING to do with a store being able to kick you out, since stores are without question improved property and thus not covered under those statutes.)

As was established in Kaiser Aetna v. United States, "the United States... cannot create a public right of access to a privately constructed and maintained" property and "the creation of this type of public right of access would, in most instances, require the federal government to flex its eminent domain muscles under the Fifth Amendment of the United States Constitution and, in the process, pay just compensation for the taking of a private property right." That is to say, if a city or state wasn't to create a "public right of access" to "privately constructed and maintained" property, they have to BUY the property, thus making it public property. In other words, in order to give you the right to enter or remain in a store, the State would have to buy the store. Otherwise, you have no right to be there. Private property does not need a sign saying it is "private property" to make it, well, private property.

While a security guard cannot tell someone what to wear, it is within the property owner's rights to tell anyone on their property (so long as their property does not meet specific "public forum" standards) to leave because they do not like what the person is wearing. Fine dining establishments can refuse to serve people who aren't dressed to their standards, after all, and they do NOT need to sign a post in order to have that right. Your right to your private property is constitutionally protected by the Fifth Amendment; you have NO right to enter private property. When a store allows "the public" to enter their private store, that is their choice, not a public right.

I would love to see the first person to tell you you have no right to be in a privately constructed and maintained store, because they would be within their full legal rights!

ETA: Public schools which are, without question, public property have the right to enforce a dress code and they may request that anyone who does not conform to that dress code to leave the property. You have more rights on public property than you do on private property (such as the right to free speech and the right to freedom of religion, which do not exist on private property); how could you possibly argue that if public schools on public property can establish and enforce dress codes, that private stores on private property cannot? Of course they can!

 

other then the occasional guard asking what the doll is and if i am selling anything, nope no problems

 

I don't understand how that's off-topic -- after all, you could just as easily be kicked out of a store or a restaurant for bringing your doll in? Not that I think it would happen, but it is a legal possibility. I mean, why not know what is your right -- and what isn't -- when you're taking your doll out in public?

People should know they do not have the legal right to take their dolls to private establishments and can be asked to leave (and if you are, you should do so immediately, without making a fuss), but they should also know that they do have the legal right against "unreasonable" searches and seizures, meaning security guards aren't allowed to take your doll or search your doll (or doll carrier) unless they have actually seen you shoplift. For example, on the 2nd page you were wondering if you could sue a security guard for breaking your doll -- you could (well, you'd sue his employer, the store), because he does not have the right to seize your property or search your person or property, unless he has actually seen you shoplift.

 

That wasn't me. That was Cauldroness.

 

Cauldroness - First you said, "They CAN ask to search your bag because they don't like how you're dressed. They have every right to judge you strictly based on your appearance."

But then you said, "but they should also know that they do have the legal right against "unreasonable" searches and seizures, meaning security guards aren't allowed to take your doll or search your doll (or doll carrier) unless they have actually seen you shoplift."

I know you said they can ask in your first comment, but if they can't search me for no reason, what's the point in asking to search me when they don't have a reason to? It's a bit pointless if you ask me. Could you clarify what you mean, since I'm pretty confused now...

 

Yup, yup, yup. It's important to remember that there's a difference between store policy and law. Security guards are required to follow both, and can be punished for violating either by their employer, but you always have to remember that store policy and law are very different. What is policy at one store may not be store policy at another store, and property owners are not legally required to follow their own policies! Even if you are not breaking any established rules, they can still ask you to leave, that's their legal right.

You have to remember that your rights often end where someone else's rights begin... and a property owner's rights begin at the property line!

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lyfeisgood -- They have the right to ask. However, you have the right to say no! So they are legally allowed to ask to search your bag, but if you say "no," then legally they can't search you (if they haven't seen you shoplift).

Most people don't know they have the right to say "No, you cannot search me!" and just let the security guards search them. That's why security guards ask -- because most people will say yes! If you say yes, then they can legally search you (even if they did not see you steal anything!), because it is a voluntary search (you agreed to it). Think about it this way: the main difference between sex and rape is that sex is a voluntary sex act, and rape is an involuntary sex act. Voluntary makes it legal; involuntary makes it illegal.

The only time a security guard is allowed to perform an involuntary search -- a search you have not agreed to -- is when that guard has actually seen you shoplift. Reasonable search and seizure is allowed under the law, even if you do not agree to it, and seeing you shoplift is "reason" under the law. Merely suspecting you of having taken something does not qualify as "reason."

 

At my school, if you bring a doll or anything around like that they'll take it away.
D:
I would LOVE to take my doll [when i get him] to school.
:3

 

That would have been the same rule at my school, and I think it is a good rule. Schools are learning environments and unless you use your doll in art class or in a technology class, the doll has no business being at school and risks being stolen or broken and makes you a target for school bullies.

I'd never want to take a doll on a school bus either Our buses were cramped, smelly and full of arrogant young ones with an inflated sense of their own superiority. They would have destroyed my doll on a whim and the school and my parents would have told me that ultimately it was my own fault for bringing the doll to school in the first place.

 

Cauldroness - It still seems a bit pointless (not to mention creepy) to ask to search somebody when you have no reason to believe they've stolen. It's like approaching somebody you don't know and asking "Hey, can I feel you up?" since I don't think of it as searching unless there is reason for a search.

I see what you're saying, but I really just think it'd be a waste of time. In a case where you can't legally search a person without thier permission, why bother asking? I know I wouldn't give someone permission to search me if I hadn't done anything, and who would?

 

Because most people see an authority figure and automatically consent. They feel that they will get into trouble if they do not consent, and sometimes, for whatever reason, believe that they will go to jail.

It's like if a police officer pulls you over and asks if he can search your car. You're perfectly fine in saying no, but some people see that as 'bad' to say 'no' to an officer of the law. Besides, if you say no they'll often bring the drug dogs, though if they find nothing you can go.

I've personally never had a problem with security and my doll, if only for the fact that I rarely take them anywhere that it might be an issue. I know not to take photos in an art gallery or anything, and so I haven't brought them there. I did take them somewhere that the staff was quite curious, but no issues from security (so far).

 

I have actually had trouble with bring my dolls into places. My babies tag along with me all the time. Wall mart namely is the one I tend to have the most issues with. Attempting to attack my wee ones with yellow smiley stickers at the door or wanting to know if I'm returning them! Thankfully enough I know all the Managers and 95 % of the staff so someone usually corrects them quickly before I have to kill them.

 

You're not quite understanding. They may have reason to believe you have stolen something -- maybe they saw you standing next to a rack of sunglasses, and now that you've moved away from that rack, there's a pair missing. Or maybe you have a suspicious bulge under your shirt that you didn't have when you walked in. Or maybe they know you shoplifted from another store, and think you may have done the same here. But they don't have legal "reason." The law uses normal words in a very different and very precise way. So while the law authorizes "reasonable" searches, it has a very different and very narrow definition of what "reasonable" means -- a definition that does NOT match with what "reasonable" means in everyday language.

So they may have reason to believe you've shoplifted, but they may not have legal "reason."

And like I said, it's not a waste of time, because lots and lots of people do say yes. Lots of people do give their permission to be searched! I used to work in retail and I can tell you that more than half of the people that security stopped and asked to search said YES!

ETA: And to bring this back to dolls, carrying a doll never qualifies as legal "reason" -- unless, of course, you're in a BJD store and you're walking out with one of the store's dolls! So security guards can never search you, without your permission, just for carrying your doll. They also can't seize or search your doll just because you're carrying your doll. They really have no permission to touch it. The only thing that would let them touch it is if they saw you put stolen merchandise in or on it.

 

Are you serious? Yikes. That is scary. I rarely take my dolls out in public unless it's for a meet up so I don't know much about mall security. Hearing that makes me want to stay away from malls even more. lol

 

Cauldroness - True, true. I'd forgotten that alot of people are unaware that they can deny an officer that. Thanks for clearing this up for me.